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Document 87-26
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Case 1:98-cv-00868-FMAROBERTA. RIGSBY. JUNE9,2004 01/14/2005 Document 87-26 Filed
1N THEUNITED STATES COURT FEDERAl,CLAIMS OF 2 3 L.P. CONSULTING GROUP. INC.. ) 4 Plaintiff: ) ~ vs. ) Case No. 6 THEUNITED STATES POSTAL 98-868 ) 7 SERVICE. / (Judge Allegro) g Defendant. ) 9 I0 The deposition of ROBERT R1GSBY, A. called I1 for examination, taken pursuant the FederalRules to 12o f Civllproceduref the United o StatesDistrict 13Courts pertaining the takingof depositions to for ld the purpose discovery, of takenbeforeJanet L. 15 Robbins,CSR 84-2207, NotaryPublic within and No. a 16for the County Coo!g of State of Illinois, anda 17 CertifiedShorthand Reporter said state, at of 18Suite 3300,Three First National Plaza, Chicago, I9 Illinois. onthe 9th dayof June,A.D.2004, at 20 2:24 p.m. 21 22 23 24 Page2
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(WHEREUPON. witness was duly the 2 sworn.) 3 ROBERTA. RIGSBY, 4 called as a witness herein, having been first duly 5 sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 6 EXAMrNATION 7 BY MR. Prosen: 8 Q. Please state your name and address for 9 the record. 10 . A. Robert A. Pdgsby, 1655 East 91st Street, 11 Chicago, 60617. 12 Q. Do you have a work address or phone 13 number, as well? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Can you put that on the record, please, 16 too? 17 A. lfs the same address. 18 Q. Oh, ifs the same address. I'm sorry. 19 Sir, my name is Lawrence Prosen, and I'm 20 counsel to L.P. Consulting. I presnme you know 21 Mr. Battaglin? 22 A. Uh-huh. 23 Q. We're here regarding the claims that 24 were submitted to you and then were appealed to the Page4
1 PRESENT: 1 Court oftrederal Appeals some years ago now, 2 BELL, BOYD LLOYD & PLLC, 2 March 3rd and April 13th, 1998. 3 (1615L Street, N.W., Suite 1200, 3 For ease of referance, there's a list in D.C. 20036-5610, 4 Washington, 4 frontofyou there whidh is marked as Southern by: 5 202-955-6830), 5 E 'xhibit 1. These are the 12 projects which are 6 ivl~. LAWRENCE PROSEN, M. 6 involved in the current litigation. Given the time, 7 appeared behalfof the Plaintiff; on 7 I thought it would be possibly a good tool to use. 8 UNITED STATES DEPAKTMENTa-USTICE, OF 8 And we'll be making reference to that, and you can C1VIL DIVISION-COMMERCIAL LITIGATIONBRANCH 9 refresh your recollection us.ing those, as well. 9 i0 (I 100L Street,N.W., Floor, 8th 10 Excuse me just a second here. D.C.20530, 11 Washington, 11 Can you jiast give a brief background of by: 12 202-307-0290), i 12 your educational back~ound? 13 MS. DOMENIQUE KIRCHNER, 13 A. Starting from when? 14 appeared behalf of the Defendant on 14 Q. Let's say high School on. and the Deponent. 15 15 A. Okay. I'm a high school graduate. I'm 16 16 also a post college gaduate. 17 ALSO PILESENT: 17 Q. What are your degrees in? You have an I8 ~. R!C~4..r~D BATTAGLIN, undergrad and ~aduate? 18 Group, Inc.; 19 L.P. Consulting 19 A. I have an under~ad de~ee in business, 20 ivLR. STEPI:~N LOBAUGH, In-House Counsel. 20 and I have a graduate degree in urban sociology. 21 UnitedStates Postal Service. 21 Q. Where were your degrees obtained? 22 22 A. Governor State Universitg,. 23 R~PORTED JANET ROBBINS, BY: L. CSR. 1LPR, 23 Q. Which is? CERTIFICATE 84-2207 NO. 24 24 A. Illinois. I (Pages1 to 4) ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES- CHICAGO 312.782.8087 800.708.8087 FAX: 312.704.4950 --
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I more pages back. "~ A. Are we under the same tab? =3 O, Yes, sir. Do you recognize tbis document, sir. or I 4 5 can you identify what it is? 6 " A. This looks like a document that's been 7 supplied to the prospective bidders, and I guess 8 it's for themto return to the contracting officer, 9 in this case, unless it is a documentthat awards 10 the contract? It's one of the two. 1I Q. Now, if you go back four more pages 12 where it says 075 atthe bottom right-hand corner. 13 A. Uh-huh. 14 Q. Generally speaking, how does the postal 15 service prepare a work order, a scope of work or a 16 work order under an iQC contract such as this? 17 A. Okay. Under an IQC contract, the postal 18 service has a document, it's a book that they 19 produce, with all of the cost items in it, all of 20 the possible items that could be applied to a 2I construction in the process of constructing a 22 renovation or anything. 23 And they're items -- each item has a 24 cost attached to it as to what the postal service is
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Q. For the same kind of work? A. Yes. Q. Now,my understanding is under an IQC. once an award has been made, the contracting officer will issue work orders to perform defined scope of work,is that correct? A. You asked me how the work orders are generated. Now,a work order for an IQCcan be generated by the postal service and supplied to the IQCtelling him what it is that we want to accomplish, what items we want to accomplish. Putting lights in, putting in two bytwoceiling tile, putting in the grid, hanginglights such as this, there's a dollar amountassociated with each item. Howmany of them you want determines the cost. Wecan do that from the postal service side or the contractor can also do that because if " he has a computerthat generates the cost for the items based on what's in the book itself- some contractors -- and I think that L.P. Cansulting may have had that. I'm certain they did, because they could come back and ~ve you the line item exactly the way it was stated in the IQC cost breakdownbook
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willing to pay to get the item done. The postal service is saying, "We'll pay you a dollar to do -put in a square foot of tile out there." If you go back and look at this document that you asked me to look at here -Q. Thafs the Page 072 a the bottom? A. -- Page 072, Mr. Battaglin and his group is saying, "We'll do that for 85 cents." Q. That's the multiplier you're talking about? A. Yes. If the postal service says, "We'll pay you a dollar to do it," L.P. Consulting says, '~No, we'll take 85 cents to do it." Q. And they competed With other offerors ' based on the multiplier? A. That's correct. Q. Is it fair to say that the .85 was probably the lowest multiplier? A. I have no idea, because I have seen some lower than that. Q. And it's based on best and final, so you look at tile whole -A. No, I've seen some multipliers as low as 79 cents.
1 showing you howmanyitems they were going to do and 2 the resulting cost. 3 Now,the pestal service person could 4 take that and either the contractingofficer or the 5 contract technician or the project manager could 6 look at it and determineif these things wereneeded 7 as a result of making visit to the facility. And a 8 if they weren't, someofthe things mayor maynot 9 be needed, then you wouldextract those things or 10 delete them, and if other things were needed, you 11 would add them. 12 So that's howthe workorder is 13 generated. It's an agreementbetweenthe 14 contracting officer ultimately and the contractor -15 Q. Okay. 16 A. -- to accomplish that work. 17 After the workorder is generated, only I8 and after the work.orderis generated and then 19 signed By the two parties should any workstart. 20 Q. So you do recall receiving proposed 21 scopes of work or task orders from L.P. Consulting? 22 A. ThaPsin general, yes. I do. 23 Q. I'm sorry? 24 A. You'reout being specific. In general,
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I 2 Q. In general, yes-3 A. Yes. 4 Q. -- yoa rememberreceiving them? A. Yes. 5 6 Q. Do you recall what these documents, these scopas of work that you received from 7 8 L.P. Consulting looked like? Were they typed or handwritten? 9 10 A. I think the majority of them might have 1 been generated by a computer or something. 12 Q. By computer? A. Yeah. Not all of them. I'm saying the 13 I4 majority of them. 15 Q. I understand. 16 If the U.S. Postal Service developed on 17 its owna scope of work for a work order, in these 18 IQC contracts, who would have been the person normally to do that task? 19 20 A. A project manager would go out and determine what work was -- scope of work was to be 21 22 done. Andthey could bring it back and give it to a contract technician and the technician could sit 23 downand go into the computer system and generate 24
Q. Were they the ooly IQC contractor in those areas for this scope or area of work, this t3,pe of work? A. IQC contractors? I'm certain there might have been two, maybe three. Q. Do you recall who else, other than L.P.? A. I think St. Louis Design and Construction. I think St. Louis Design and Construction. Q. What would be the purpose of awarding IQCcontracts for the same type of work in the same areato multiple contractors? MS. I(dRCHNER: Objection, hypothetical, ambiguous. BY ivIR. PROSEN: Q. You can answer. MS. I¢_IRCHNER: You can answer the question. " BY THE WITNESS: A. Wouldyou repeat the question, please? BY ivLR. PROSEN: Q. Sure. Whywould the postal service award multiple IQC contracts to various contractors for the same defined geographic area or zip code or whatever for the same work? What does that
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1 accomplish? 1 based on the numbers, on the shear numbers that are 2 A. First of all, we have a right to do it. 2 associated with that particular item. 3 Secondly, the reason that we really do it is 3 Q. Thafs the FMSWin, when you're talking 4 because -- we really did do it, I'm no longer a part 4 about the computer? A. I think it may have been~ yes. 5 of it, was because you want to have the opportunity 5 6 that in the event you would cali on one contractor 6 Q. Did there come a time in the course of 7 your dealings with L.P. Consulting with these IQC 7 to do something and you needed to get it done in a 8 hurry and he was busy doing something else, you 8 contracts where you requested L.P. Consulting to 9 travel to various postal facilities t6 do, I guass 9 would be able to call on another contractor to do I 0 that. 10 you wouldcall them, a facility survey or site 11 Q. Under these IQC contracts, when I say 11 survey? 12 "these," I'm referring Tabs 2 and 3 which are 12 A. Are you speaking in general terms? 13 13 Southern E,'daibits 3 and 4, the two contracts between Q. Yes, for nowwe're talking general. 14 the postal service and L.P. Consulting, howare the 14 A. Thera may have been a time. Because you 15 scopes of work and the work orders generally I5 wouldn't require all -- that wouldapply to any IQC, you would require them to go and look at the 16 developed on those two projects -- on those two 16 17 contracts? ['m sorry. 17 facility.. 18 A. It depends -- you mean in this Q. Even if the government -- even if the 18 19 particular case or in general or what? 19 U.S. Postal Service llad internally developed the 20 Q. On this particular case is fine, yeah. 20 scope of work? 21 A. In the case of L.P. Consulting, we "knew 21 A. They do it for every !QC. Mr. Battaglin and his goup was not the only [QCthat was assigned 22 the backgrmmd Mr. Bartaglin. as tar as his of 22 23 ability., to go out and produce scopes. So the postal 23 to that zip code area. There were other IQCsalso 24 service would say go out and produce a scope, but a 24 operating at the same time. 6 ~Pages21 to 24 ESQIJ[RE DEPOSITION SERVICES - CH|CAGO 312.782.8087 800.708.8087 FAX: 312.704.4950 --
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postal service employeemaybe with him, but there 2 was not a need to duplicate the workorder 3 generation portion of it. 4 So he wouldbe allowed to do that in 6 whenhe wasrequested to do it. If you go out and 7 do that, bring the scope of workback; and if it was 8 a~eed upon, then it would be signed and we would 9 proceed. But tile ultimate scope is producedby the 10 postal service. Q. Yousaid the ultimate scope is what? 11 12 A. The ultimate scope of work is produced 13 by the postal service. It can only be generated by 14 the postal service. Whathe maybe supplying to us 15 is a proposal; in other words, this is whathe 16 thinks needsto be done.In a lot of cases, it's ] 17 just repetitive work. We the samecolor in use 18 every post office, whichis white, the samekind of 19 counter. When walk up to a counter in one you 20 office, it's the same it is in another,so you as 21 "knowwhat you've got to do. 22 Q. Kind of like a corporate imageso -23 A. Corporate image. Weuse the same kind 24 of tile on the floor.
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project. Q. Okay.I jast wantto makesure we're clear. Was thare any -- 1 don't know to how quite -- systemin place to decide whichIQCwas sent to which projects? A. Youtry to cluster the projects and keep them in someproximity so you wouldn'thave an IQC runningall over fromwest to east. Q. For example,in this IQC,96-B-0098, it says for zip codes-- andI'mreferring to Page 078-- zip codes604, 605and 609. There were other IQCcontractors under separate IQCcontracts that also wereassignedto those samezip codes? A. I'm almost certain there were other contractors there. in Q. I'mjust trying to make it's clear. sure A. Yeah. I wouldsay I'm 99 percent sure there were. Q. Where IQCcontractor such as L.P. an submitted draft scopeof workto you, did the a govermment performany sort of independentestimate or have anything to compare with the scope of work
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Q. - every post office looks the same to a 2 certain extent? 3 A. It's the samekind of tile on the floor. 4 It's the same kind of door you comethrou~ all the 5 time. So it wasn't rocket science, okay? 6 Q. So the twoIQCcontracts that we have 7 here, L.P. was requested by you to go out and 8 perform site surveys and submit a dra~ scope of 9 work? 10 A. For specific projects. 11 Q. Okay. Okay. I2 A. So were other contractors, so were other 13 IQCcontractors. 14 Q. Who? A. St. Louis Design and Construcfion. 15 Q. Anyone else you can recall, any other 16 17 IQCcontractors? A. I can't think of the nameof the guy out 18 19 of Wisconsin. 20 Q. Summer? 2I A. Summers,right, Summers Construction. 22 Q. Youwould send them to the same projects 23 or to different projects? 24 A. Never an IQC and an IQC to the same
1 to make sure, in fact, the quantities on there were 2 reasonable and accurate? 3 A. Wehave the same book - we produce the a hookthat wegave himto do the cost estimations, so 5 we have the same source as he has. Q. Right. But once - those costs are the 6 7 same,is that a fair statement? 8 A. Yes. Q. The costs in there are the same. They 9 10 competed the multiplier wesaw was .85 percent in 11 SouthernExhibit 5. 12 A. Uh-huh. 13 Q. So that cost is a fixed cost per unit, 14 right? It's the quantitiesthat's the variable? A. That's absolutely right. 15 16 Q. How does the postal service verif3' that 17 the quantities in an IQCcontractor proposed scope 18 of workare reasonable and accurate? !9 A. Youhave to have a project manageror 20 someone visit the site. If he says he's goingto 21 put in 200pieces of tile, youhaveto assame he's 22 goingto do it antil youget a personont there to 23 visit. 24 Q. And it only fits 20 pieces of tile or if 7 (Pages25 to 28
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somethiag like that, you kuowsomething is off, right? A. Yes, you would. Q. I got you. Is there any way to commit moneyto an IQC contract without having a formal work order in place; as I understand, a computergenerated or FIvIS Win generated work order? A. You have to produce the work order in order to makefunds, I wouldthink. Q. Make the funds, okay. A. I think. You would have to certainly have a contract numberassi~ed'to that particular project. Q. If you're going to send an IQC contractor out to perform -- if we could use site or field surv6y for what we've been talking about, is it fair to assumethat by your sending them out there, that there's workto be done at that project site? A. It's fair to assumethat there's an interest in having work done at that site. And everyone knowsthat by virtue of your going to visit and look to see if there's workthat needs to be
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order to L.P. and then made an award to a company' called, I think, PNLand retracted L.P.'s work order? A. I don't recall any specifics on that Q. Do yoo know a Jesse McNabb? A. Yes, Ido. Q. Who is Mr. McNabb? used to work with me. A. IVlr. McNabb Q. In what capacity? A. He was a project manager. Q. Howabout a Paul Steiner, S-T-E-I-N-E-R? A. He worked for me. Q. Catherine Marks? A. She worked for me. Q. Whatwere their duties, Mr. Steiner first? A. Mr. Steiner was a project manager. Q. Ms. Marks? A. Ms. Marks was also a project manager, but the duties and responsibilities were commensurate with the person's ability to do that type of work. In other words, some people would have more complex projects to supervise than others. Q. Based on their knowledge, experience,
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i done does not guaranty that you're going to get it 2 done. 3 Q. So ies their cost to eat, the 4 contractor's? 5 A. At the time that that contract was being 6 administered, that is the case, that was the case. 7 Now,under the new contracts, that's when I was 8 leaving, I knowthat we were proposing under the new 9 contracts they would give the contractor some - $50 10 or somett~ngfor makingthe visit. 11 Q. Like just a flat fee? 12 A. Yes. If a guy goes and makes a site 13 visit, he wouldget something for gas or whatever. 14 [t was a fiat sum. It was being proposed~I don't 15 knowwhether it went through or not. 16 Q. Wasthere ever a time where you 17 committedwork to L.P.'s IQC contracts and then 18 subsequently decommitted that work? 19 A. [ don't know. It may have, depending on ~; ...... _ ~0 what ~,,~.m~tanc~ that were "m;'o[ved, l don't 21 ~,mow.That would be the contracting officer's right 22 to do that. 2.3 Q. Do you recall in Paxton. the Paxton. 24 Illinois pr~iect, that you issued a signed work
I age, and all those sorts of things? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. How about a Lois Gunlogson? 4 A. Same thing. 5 Q. She was also a project manager? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Mary Yates? 8 A. (No response.) 9 Q. You don't recall her? 10 A. No. 11 Q. A Robert Gibbons, G-I-B-B-O-N-S? 12 A. No. 13 Q. How about Samuel Southern? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Who was Mr. Southern? 16 A. NIr. Southern was a facility specialist. 17 He worked for me. Q. Do you recall whether or not any of the 18 l 9 individuals whoyou recall, obviously not Ms. Yates '~0 or Mr. Gibbons: did you ever send them ,xlt 21 visits with L.P. Consulting'? 22 A. I'm sure I did. 23 Q. And do you kno~v what the purpose of 24 ~bosesite visits were? 8 (Pages 29 to 32)
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I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 I3 14 [5 16 17 18 I9 20 21 22 23 24 A. To determine if work needed to be done. Q. Do you recall the project? A. Not specific, no. Q. Turn to Soothern Exhibit 7. it's under Tab 6, please. It's a letter to Ms. Gunlogson, dated 20, September 1996 from Mr. Battaglin. Do you recall seeing this letter? A. 1 don't recall it at this time. Q. Do you recall any site visits that L.P. would 13ave had with Mr. Steiner regarding, among other projects, the Hoopestonproject? A. All I knowis at this point, Mr. Steiner did go out on visits with Mr. Battaglin. Q. Howabout with Mr. Southern with regard to either St. Anne or Momence? A. I don't recall any specific projects they mayhave visited, but I do "knowin general he has gone out with him. Q. If we could turn to the next page, Southern Exhibit No. 8. It's Tab 7. Do you recognize this handwriting or know who the author of this document is? A. No. Q. Do you know a Wayne Miller?
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Q. Whosesapervision was it under? A. It was under Larry Linnenborger's. I'm certain. Q. Wasit the same type of work as the other projects that were being performed by L.P. Consulting? A. I think the scope of work may have been a little greater than what the level of responsibility that we had at the district level. AndI think at that time it mayhave been $100,000. Andthis project exceeded $100,000, so it would have gone back to Larry Linnenburger. Q. What is your understanding of what the work orders that L.P. was to perform under these IQC contracts, generally what Nndof work was L.P. to perform? A. Under the IQC contract? Q. Under the two IQC contracts, yeah. Not specific to a project, but overall what -kind of work dMthey perform? A. All the work that was included in the solicitation, the type of workthat was done -included in the solicitation package. He would have
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1 had to have qualified to do that kind of work. So A. Yes. 2 that's what I wouldhave expected him to do. is Q. Who Ivlr. Miller? 3 Q. And what kind of work was that, do you A. Mr.Miller, I think he still is, I think 4 recall? he's a field manageror something for maintenance. 5 A. N general, it's renovations and Q. What would his duties involve? 6 improvements postal facilities. in A. He was detailed to myoffice for a 7 Q. Lookat the next document,please, sir, while, and his duties at that time wouldhave been 8 underTab 8, SouthernE,'~ibit 9. It's a letter to project manager. 9 you dated February 28th, 1995 fromL.P. Consulting. Q. Like Mr. IvlcNabb and ivlr. Steiner? Haveyou seen this letter, sir? While I0 A. Yeah. Everybody who has the name 11 you're reading, I'm going to direct your attention project managerhad different levels of 12 to the last little bit on Page1, top of Page2, responsibility. I keep emphasizingthat. 13 which says.the following have been visited and have Q. It says under 3, "Post office with a t4 a scope of work approval by yourself. It references scope of work approved by Mr. Rigsby," and it I5 St. Anneand AromaPark. The top of the next page, identifies under "B" St..Anne and "I," AromaPark. 16 "The following have been visited and have pending Do you recall approving any scopes of 17 scope of work approval, Papinean, Bradley, Momence?' work for St. Anne or AromaPark on behalf of 18 There's alisting ofseveral others, but rmjust L.P. Consulting? 19 focusing on the projects for here. A. No, no, I don't recall having approved 20 Andthen it says a little further down, any. 21 "The tbllowing have not been visited to the best of Q. Do you remember rejecting any scopes of work for L.P. for St. Annea~d _Aroma Park or denying 22 our kno~vledge, East Lyrmand Hoopeston." 23 Do you recall receiving and approving the scope, howeveryou want to call it? 24 fi'om L.P. Consulting scopes ofwoi'k for St. A~neand A. .AromaPark was a project that was not 9 (Pages 33 to 36) ESQUIKE DEPOSITION SERVICES-CHICAGO 312.782.8087 800.708.8087 FAX: M~.704.4950 -
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Aroma Park? A. No, I don't. Q. Youdofft recall? A. I don't recall. Do you recall L.P. having visited Q. Papineau, Bradley and Momence? A. No, I don't. Q. Do you recall receiving a scope of work for those three projects? A. No, I don't. Lets go on. Bear with me for a second Q. here. If you go to -- I guess this is going to be Exhibit 25. If you go to Tab 1 l, please. At certain exhibits, the court reporter is going to put a stamp on there. This is one of them. I think you're 9ne document -- let me see here. On yours it's Tab 10. MR. PROSEN: Let's go offthe record. No, okay, let's just go. Mytabs may be off. (WHEREUPON, certain document was a marked Pdgsby Exhibit No. 25 for identification, as of 6/9/04.)
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A. No. Q. Do you lmow who developed the scopes -now-- strike that. There's a numberof projects listed on here, including East Lynn, Papineau, Union Hill, and on the top of the second page, Hoopestnn, St. Anne. Do you "know who developed the scope of work that Ms. Yates and Mr. Gibbonsdid not feel, I guess the term, confident e~ough to develop those scopes of work? A. I don't recall. Q. Let's go to E,~ibit 10, which would be myTab 12. It's an L.P. Consulting letter dated May29, I997. Mr. Southern is copied on it. Have you seen this document, sir? Do you recall seeing this? A. No, I don't recall seeing this. Q. Do you have any reason to doubt that L.P. Consulting, along with USPS personnel -- well, strike that. Do you have any reason to believe that L.P. Consulting submitted a draft work order with sketches on the Hoopeston, Momence,St. Anne and East Lynn projects?
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1 BY MR. PROSEN: 2 Q. Have you seen this document before, sir? 3 There's no date on it. 4 A. I can't recall having seen that. 5 Q. Let's walk through it just a little bit 6 here. Starting on the second page, there's a 7 paragraph in there that says in part, "The survey 8 team did not feel it was within our realm of 9 "knowledge to survey and logically denote the We 10 renovation required of these facilities. 11 observed that extensive building modification, in 12 our opinion, would be required and decided that I I3 persons, such as yourself, could make a more usefuI 14 and timely estimate," end quote. 15 Did you ask a Mary Yates who, as I i6 understand, is the Piper City Postmaster, and 17 Mr. Gibbons, who is the Cissna, C-I-S-S-N-A, Park I8 Postmaster, to perform this work priority, survey? I9 A. I don't recall. 20 MS. KIRCIqNER: Objection, ambiguous. 21 BY MR. PROSEN: 22 Q. I'm sorv? 23 A. I don't recall doing that. 24 Youdon't recall? Q.
1 Doyou recall -- strike that. 2 Doyou recall receiving a draft work 3 order with sketches prepared by L.P. Consulting as a 4 result of site visits that they had with U.S. Postal 5 Service personnel in Hoopestnn? MS. KIl~CFfNER: Objection, compound. 7 BY THE WITNESS: 8 A. No, 9 BY MR. PROSEN: 10 Q. Momence? 11 A. No. 12 Q. St. Anne? I3 A. No. 14 Q. East Lynn? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Did you ever request that I7 L.P. Consulting do a site visit and prepare a scope 18 of work for Hoopeston? 19 A. Not to my"knowledge. 20 Q. Momence? 21 A. l don'trecall. 22 Q. St. Anne? 23 A. I dnn~t recall that. 24 Q. East Lynn? It) (Pages37 to 40'
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I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 l Q. The second columnat the top, it says~ 2 "HandicapSurvey Rich," and there's an "A" above it. Andthen you movethree columnsover. and there's a 3 4 "B," and it says, "L.P. ConsultingProposal." And 5 it's got other columns, "L.P. Consulting Drawiogs," 6 "USPS Contract," et cetera. 7 ls "Rich" Rich Battaglin, you think? MS. KIRCHNER: Objection. He already told you 8 he doesn't recognize this document. 9 I0 BYTHE WITNESS: A. I have no idea. 11 12 BY MR. PROSEN: Q. Okay. Did you ever make any statement 13 14 or representation to L.P. that if they prepareda sanpe of work, submitted it, the resulting task 15 16 order would be awarded to them or the work order 17 would be given to them under their IQCcontract? ' 18 A. No, I have not. I9 Q. Never? 20 A. Never ever have I done that. That would be illegal to do. 21 22 Q. Under an e,~sting IQC contract, that 23 wouldbe illegal? 24 A. To promise someone something based on
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Q. lfL.P, onder its IQC contract does not submitascopeofworkforagivenprqiectthatyou wouli:l send him out to, does the postal service have any other document or mechanism to knowwhat tile work is that has to be performed? A. Sure. Q. Whatis that? A. Wecan go out and do a survey ourselves and develop the scope. Q, So the government develops its own scopes of work? A. Of course. That's how you solicit. Q, I'm sorry, That's soliaited under other contracts for competition? A. You do the same thing under the work order. Youcan produce a work order, send it to the contractor and say, "Here's the work to be performed." Q. Right. A. You go out and verify quantities before you sign it and send it back. Q. But in this case, what if a contractor is asked by you to go develop a scope of work and submit it to you?
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A. That does not -- that does not in any 1 submitting a workorder, illegal. 2 case indicate to a contractor that you're going to 2 Q. Did you ever take an L.P. developed 3 get this work, that we're going to give you this 3 statement of workfor a work order and provide it to 4 work or that you're going to perform this work. 4 other non-U.S. Postal Service persons, individuals 5 Q. That's not what I asked. The question 5 or companies? 6 I've asked is: On a given project, if 6 A. To answer your question, no. And I 7 L.P. Consulting is asked by you to go out to 7 would have no need to do that becanse the documents 8 Momence, whatever the project is, deveinp a scope or 8 that Mr. -- that L.P. Consultingwouldutilize to 9 of work, submit it to you, if that scope of workis 9 develop the scope of work, we generate those I0 documents and give them to them, so why would I have 10 not submitted by L.P., does the U.S. Postal Service 11 have any other documentation or an independent 11 to use his estimates to do that? I2 estimate prepared to determine what work needs to be 12 If1 generate a documenttelling you 13 performedon that project, on that postal facility? 13 that I'm going to pay you$5 to put that light in 14 MS. IrdRCHNER:Objection, ambiguous, 14 and there's a proposal telling meyou're going to 15 hypothetical. 15 chargeme$5 to put that light in, in this case it's I6 BY THE WITNESS: 16 the 85 cents -- I mean, $4 and whatever, whywould I A. Yes, there are other means for producing 17 need to turn aroandand use that to give it to i I7 18 someoneelse? I already knowwhat it's going to ~ 18 a scope of work. Wecan do it ourse.ves, generate 19 cost. 19 the document and send it to him. 20 BY MR. PROSEN: 20 Q. You knowwhat the cost is going to be; 21 Q. Then why have the contractor go out and 21 you don't know~vhat tile actual workthat's neededto 22 perform the work, do the site visit and the scope? 22 be performed is? 23 A. Wehave contractors do things depending 23 A. Yes, we do, because I have to approve it 24 on the expertise of the contractor. By no means was 24 one way or the other. b [Pa~es 49 to 52 ESQUII~ DEPOSITION SERVICES-CHICAGO 312.782.8087 800.708.8087 FAX:312.704A950
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can commitit against the contract. 1'11 take the libel, to note, the contract and the contract nnmberthafs associated here on 0726 is exactly the same contract number tbafs associated witb this sheet numbered0728. Those are one and the same, so you're not committing it to one person and ultimately awardingit to someoneelse. Those are the same people. BY MR. PROSEN: Q. I'm sorry, sir, can you walk me through that again? I'm trying to follow with the numbers. Maybe because I'm not a contracting officer, I'm not following. Can you walk me through it? A. I think it's three, four columnsdownon the offer, the fixed mechanization-Q. Uh-huh. A. - project contract payment authorization. Q. It's 728, 0728, yeah. A. Yes. The contract numberitself-Q. Yes. A. - it is the same numberon the commitmentform that you see. Q. So you assi~ money to a non-existing
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A. First of'all, the solicitation -- this solicitation number, recall this. It wasa l solicitation that wasgeneratedby the contract technician whowaspreparing the file for the project. And this solicitation and the solicitation number just for the file itself. is This was a simplified purchase. Andfor a simplified purchase, you don't necessarily have to havea solicitation, a formalsolicitation. Q. Right. A. Youcan call three people on the telephone and send them drawingsfor the project, meet themat the site with project drawingsand say, "Nowgive me bids each one of you." Youdon't necessarily needa solicitation as formalas this is here. So this piece of paper, it means nothing. It wasjust generatedfor the file after the fact. Q. So this solicitation wasnever A. It didn't go out to anybody. Q. - issued? MS.K1RCI-]NER: You're interrupting, please. Tt-IE COURT REPORTER:can't get two people at I
Page 66 1 contract? 2 A. No, but I'm telling you that the 3 contract itself, the number produced.That's the is 4 numberthat's produced by the system. Q. But can you produce that number without 5 6 having a contract solicited and an award made?A 7 solicitation gets a number then the number and gets 8 switched when an award is made to a contract number? 9 A. No, it's not switched. The contract 10 and -- the contract number this page and the on 11 contract numberback here are exactly same. 12 Q. Sir, I think ";ye're talking acrosseach 13 other. MS. KIRCHNER: thfi~ you're also I 14 I5 interrupting a lot. 1 think you should let him 16 finish. MR. PROSEN: That's f'me. 17 18 MS. KIRCHNER: maybe it wi!l be clearer. ~md ] 19 BY N[R. PROSEN: 20 Q. I understand what you're saying about 2I the contract numberhere and there. The 22 solicitation number here, the 97 solicitation number, you telling methat this 97 solicitation are 23 24 number--
Page68 1 once. 2 BY MR. PROSEN: 3 Q. Go ahead sir. 4 A. To my knowledge, this solicitation never 5 went out to any contractors. There would be no need 6 at this point. R was simplyfor the fries, to 7 complete the files. AndI think that if you go back 8 and lookat the original in the file itself, it 9 probably has a note right on it saying that. 10 Q. I'd like to see a copy of that, please, 11 if that exists, becauseI've neverseen it. I2 A. I said probably, probably has a note on 13 it. 14 Q. Are you familiar with -- that reminds 15 me. I6 A. May point out, also, that this project I 17 was -- I guess that corporation counsel, wasit, ! ! 8 reviewedthis in a protest earlier based on the fact 19 that this verb, thing in here, the administrationof 20 the contracting officer was -- the administration of 21 this project was wrong. They found absolutely 22 nothing wrong with the way the project was 23 solicited, nothing wrongwith the project, the way 24 the project was accomplished. Andyou should have a t7 (Panas 65 to 68
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copyof that decision, also. So whatever needs to be said and done about this project was already said and done: that it wasaothing illegal abontthis soIicitation, nor the administratinn of the paperwork,nor the payment on this project.. If youneedthat, I've got it for you, Q. I've seen it, sir. MS. COURT REPORTER: Can we take about five minutes? MR. PROSEN:Sure. (WHEREUPON,recess was had.) a BY MR. PROSEN: Q. Let's go to Tab 27, sir, Exhibit -- it's SamSouthern E~bit 18. It's a two-page Term Constractinn Contract WorkOrder, dated 8/1/96, and it's got what appears to be four pages of drawings and handwritten notes at~erwards. It says "Door Specs." Doyou recall ever receiving this document? A. I don't recall it. Q. The drawings beginning at Page 3, do you knowwhoprepared -- who would have prepared these
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MS. KIR.CHNER: Every time you say -2 BY MR. PROSEN: 3 Q. Right to left. Go backwards one more 4 page, so -5 A. What tab are you under? 6 MS. KIRCHNER: think you mean forward. I 7 BY MR. PROSEN: 8 Q. I mean go forward one more page. That 9 pageright there, sir, that youjnst flipped over, 10 can you identify that page, that document? 11 A. It looks like a contract award. 12 Q. Do you ever recall making the 13 determination to not use an IQCcontract or issue a 14 work order after your project managers have returned 15 from a field visit with a draft statement of work or 16 draft work order and instead using like a simplified I7 purchase method? ]8 A. I don't recall, but it could have been 19 done, because the postal service has a perfect right 20 to do that. 21 Q. But you don't recall any specific 22 A. I don't recall any specifics. 23 Q. If you'd go up to No. 35, Tab 35. This 24 will be E:daibit 30.
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drawings? A. No, I don't. Q. Let's skip forward to Southern Exhibit 19 on Tab 31, Brookfield ramp and dock enclosure. There's no date on it, but it consists of one two-page and one seven-page document. Doyou recall ever receiving these, sir, or seeing these? A. No, sir. Q. Let's go to the next document. It's going to be 29, under Tab 32. (WHEREUPON; certain documant was a marked Rigsby Exhibit No. 29 for identification, as of 6/9/04,) BY MR. PROSEN: Q. Can you identify this document, sir? A. This is a typical postal service letter that's generated to tell a contractor that he should proceed with the work under that contract. " :~"- " fllp ~ another page Q. rand ~t ~uu~,~c~, ~* there-A. Which way, back? 22 23 Q. Backwards, yes. Oh. I'm sorry. I'm
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1 (WHERE~ON,a certain document was 2 marked Rigsby Exhibit No. 30 for 3 ldentificatinn, as.of 6/9/04.) 4 BY IVIR. PROSEN: Q. Do you know who A.M. Fernandez & 5 15 Associates is? 7 A. This was an architecture firm that was 8 under contract with the postal service to perform 9 IQC work. 10 Q. Andy Fernandez who signed this letter at 11 the bottom, this is the same firm that I think you 12 stated you worked for after you retired from the 13 postal service? 14 A. Briefly, yes. 15 Q. How long is briefly? How long did you 16 work for them? A. It may have been three, four months. 18 Q. What was your salary at the time of your 19 retirement with the postal service, do you recall? 20 A. It was $80,000 plus. 2I Q. What was your salary, when you worked for 22 Mr. Fernandez? 23 MS. KIRCHqSIER:Objection, ambiguoos. 24 BY THE WITNESS: I8 (Pages 69 to 72
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l A. I don*t recalh I think that was an 2 agreementthat we wouldworkby like projects or 3 something, you know. '4 BY MR. PROSEN: 5 Q+ A fixed price per contract? 6 A. Per project-7 Q. I'msorry. 8 A. -- depending on the scope of work or how 9 much time I spent on a project. 10 Q. Do you recall what-- was it based on a 11 per project negotiation? In other words, I2 Mr. Fernandez would work on a project and you and he 13 would then negotiate your compensation? 14 A. That's the way it was supposed to have 15 been, but actually I only workedon one project 16 whereI gotpaid. 17 Q. What project was that7 18 A. I would have to look at mynotes. I 19 workedon more than one project, but one where I got 20 paid, maybetwo. 21 Q. Whatnotes are those? 22 A. I mayhave notes at home. 23 Q. Doyou have any other project files or 2'4 documentsduring the time whenyou we[e at the
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Exhibit I, work on an3' of those 12 projects, which are the 12 projects that this case is about? A. ldon'tknowatthispoint. Ivlymemory would have to be refreshed. Q. Wouldconstruction oversight reports, such as the one in front of you now, be developed -I'm sorry -- be prepared and submitted by Mr. Fernandez on the other handicap ramp projects which he performed for the postal service? A. Should have been, yes. Q. Where would those documents be located? A. Shouldbe in the project files. Q. Wouldit be unusual if those documents were not ~ere? A. They should be there. Q. So that's a yes, it would be unusual if they weren't in there? MS. KLR.CHNER: Objection, ambiguous, misconstrues testimony. BY THE WITNESS: A. I would think that they should be there. Unless they were misfiled or something, they should be there. BY MR. PROSEN:
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1 postal service your in possession? 2 A. No. 3 Q. With regard to this report here, ,-t September 16th, 1996, it says, "Broot.ffield, Illinois 5 Handicap Ramp." There's three pages. It looks like 6 they call it construction oversight reports. 7 Isn't it a fact that/vlr. Fernandez 8 worked on a number of these handicap ramp projects 9 other than Brookfield? 10 A. That's correct. I1 Q. What was the general scope of his 12 responsibilities under his IQCcontract with the 13 government, with the postal service? 14 A. The general scope was to prepare 15 drawings, I would think. I'd have to see the 16 solicitation. Andthen I would assume if he was I7 awarded the contract, he could perfoma those duties !8 within the solicitation. I9 Q. You say you assume. ~_'ou don't recall 20 what his duties were? 21 A. I don't recall specifically what all of 22 the duties were of a contracted architect at this 23 point. 24 Q. Did Mr. Fernandez. I'm referring back to
1 Q. Let's go to Tab 36. It's E'xhibit 20, 2 Southern Exhibit 20. That's an Aroma Park Term 3 Construction Congact Work Order. 4 Sir, do you recall ever receiving this 5 document? A. No, I don't. I think you asked me this 6 7 before, but I don't. 8 Q. If I did, I apologize. Let% go to a 9 different one. Let's skip over one and we'll go to l0 111 Tab 38, which will be anew exhibit, 31. 12 (WHEREUPON, certain document was a 13 marked Rigsby Exhibit No. 3I for 14 identification, as of 6/9/04.) 15 BY iv[R. PROSEN: 16 Q. Do you recall receiving this document 17 ever, sir? It's Beaverville, Illinois, 18 miscellaneous renovations to help you identify2 I9 There's no date. 20 A. I don't recallthis. 21 Q. Skip over one and we'll go to Tab 40. 22 it will be Exhibit 32. 23 (WHEREUPON, certain document was a 24 marked Rigsby Exhibit No. 32 tbr 19 (Pages 73 to 76
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identification, as of 6/9/04.) 2 BY MR. PROSEN: 3 Q. This consists of actually two documants, 4 both identified as -- well, Bradley ramp and lobby, 5 eight pages, and the second one, Bradley, Illinois {5 ramp and lobby, two pages. 7 Do you recall ever receiving these 8 documents, sir? 9 A. No, I do not. I0 Q. You don't recall ever seeing any of 11 these documents ever? I2 A. I don't recall. 13 Q. And the next document under 41, 14 Exhibit 33. 15 (WHEREUPON, certain a document was 16 marked Rigsby E,'d~bit No. 33 for ] 17 identification, as of 6/9/04.) i 18 BY MR. PROSEN: 19 Q. It's the installation of handicap ramp, 20 Bradley, Illinois. 21 The second page, is that your signature 22 at the bottom, sir? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. That's a notice of intent to award to
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it's going to cost you to prodoce this document" -l mean, "to do this ramp." So that was ajodgment call of the contracting officer. Q. But there's nothing in writing that would suppot'~ your decision to competethis project? A. I don't understand the question. Q. There's nothing -- no written justification or written decision or written report or memorandum the file that says, "Here's the to reasons that I, contracting officer, am competing this project," as opposedto giving it to the IQC? A. If it's in the best interest of the postal service and the contracting officer feels that it's in the best interest of the postal service to do that, then that's whenifs normally done? Q. Is that determination of best interest, though, ever put downin writing anywhere? A. Yes, it is. It's in writing in the purchasing manual. Ifs in the front part of the purchasing manual. Q. I'm sorry, sir, I don't meanthe purchasing manual I mean for a given contract, you said you look at this - if for somereason you decide to competethis, whatever those reasons are,
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1 Ramcorp, R-A-IVI-C-O-R-P, Inc. for installation o f a 2 handicap ramp, correct? 3 A. Ri~t. Q. Why did you compete this project? 4 5 A. Because apparently we felt it was in the 6 best interest of the postal service to do that. 7 Q. Do you do a justificat!on, a J&A-- I'm 8 not sure what you'd call it internally -- a written 9 justification? I0 A. As to? 11 Q. A decision as to what contract 12 mechanism, whether or not it's under an IQC or a 13 term fixed price or whatever you want to call it. 14 Is there a written documentthat justifias what 15 contract tanl, if you will, you're using? 16 A. It's a judgment call on the contracting I7 officer and also advice from the staffand also from 18 previous experience at having done this. 19 [n the case of a ramp, you look at the 20 IQC documents that you have to utilize to generate 21 line items: in other words, unit cost. It's not 22 always easy to determine whatever goes in and what 23 doesn't go in. It's mocheasier to give a 24 contractor drawings and say, "Bid tad tell me what
I do you ever put those reasons downon paper, put 2 them in the contract file or anything? Is that 3 normally what happens, or is it just that you sit 4 downwith your staffand m, ake a decision and ifs a 5 verbal decision and that's tlie ~nd of it? 6 A. In the case of the ramps, it was not 7 just one ramp involved. I think there may have been 8 20-plus ramtSs involved. So the decision was to do 9 alI the ramps at one time and get all the 10 justifications out at one time on the ramps, not to i 1 piecemeal it together. 12 And you need to get adequate 13 competition. I think we had four contractors 14 bidding on all of these ramps that were to be 15 installed. 16 The purchasing guidelines permit the 17 contractor -- the contracting officer, rather, to 18 solicit projects outside of utilizing IQCs. In so 19 doing, you don't have to invite the IQCm bid on 20 the project uuder the simplified pumhasingprocess. 21 becaase the contracting officer is mandatedby the 22 postal guidelines to always seek to broaden the base 23 of contractors that are ased xvithin tile postal 24 service. So it's acommon general knowledge that 20 (Pages 77 to 80
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l 2 ] 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 11 12 13 14 15 i6 I7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 record. BY THE WI'I~NES$: A. You're asking to passjadgment me on someone. Youknow, ] regarded him very highly until. today. WhenI workedwith Mr. Battaglin, I regarded him very highly, also. BY Iv[R. PROSEN: Q. Whois Dave Schiffman? f believe it's S-C-H-I-F-F-M-A-N? A. Dave Schiffman was detailed to my office for a while. Q. What were his duties under your watch? A. What was he doing? Dave had a variety ofdutias. One of thorn may have been some project managementIt could have been. Q. Did he ever change the locks in all the file cabinets of the contract files? A. He had may have. Q. Why? A. Because we're required by law to have all contract files locked. Q. Andthey weren~before? A. They may or may not have been, but t~e locks were determined to be inadequate, and they
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Page 95 I competitively]el contracts that came of your out 2 office? 3 MS. KIRCKNER: Objection, ambiguous, compound. 4 BYTHE WITNESS: 5 A. Whenyou say "competitively let," yon 6 mean-7 BY MR, PROSEN: 8 Q. Youhad the IQCand then you also 9 competitively awardedother contracts. 10 A. Right. 11 Q. Andyou said -- your testimony was that 12 he continued to get work. I asked about the IQC. 13 Now asking the same question except about the I'm 14 competitive contracts, not the IQCs,the other i5 stuff, the other contracts, the competitivelylet i6 ones. Hewas included in the bid lists and sent all 17 the proposals, sent the solicitations? 18 MS. Ka'~_CHNER: Objection, ambiguous, compound, 19 confusing. 20 BYTKE WITNESS: ] 21 A. When say sent all the proposals -you 22 BY MR. PROSEN: 23 Q. Not all. 24 A. -- I don't think anyonewas sent all the Page 96 1 proposals. 2 Q. Someportion. 3 MS. Kll~CHNER: Objection, ambiguous, compound. 4 BY ~ WITNESS: 5 A. To myknowledge, I don't recall having 6 excluded anyone, any contractor. Andany contractor 7 wouldbe called whenhis services were needed. 8 BY MR. PROSEN: Q. So you didn't make a formal 9 10 determination that L.P. was not responsible? ll A. Oh, certainly not. 12 Q. You never excluded them from any offer 13 or bidderlist? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Younever initiated formal debarment 16 proceedings, did you? 17 A. No. Q. What about their past performance? What 18 19 kind ofqaality work-- in your opinion, based on 20 your olaservations an6 all, whatkind of workquality. 21 did they provide the government? 22 MS. KIRCHNER: Objection, ambiguous, compound. 2.3 BY TIlE WITNESS: 24 A. Mr. Bartaglin and his group, the work 24 (.Pagest13 to 96
Page 94 1 were locked in such a waythat no one could get in 2 after we were gone homefor the night. Because the 3 cabinets were in an open area. People wouldjust 4 walk pass them. 5 Q. Early on in those IQCcontracts, it 6 appears that LP. got a pretty decent amountof work 7 fromyou. Andthen, for lack of a better term, the is 8 well dried up. Why that? 9 MS. KIRCI-INER:Objection, ambiguous, compound. 10 BY MR. PROSEN: [I1 Q. Whydid you stop making awards to L.P. 12 or issuing task orders? 13 MS. KIRCHNER: Objection, ambiguous, compound. 14 BY THE WITNESS: 15 A. I don't recall that we stopped. 16 BY MR. PROSEN: 17 Q. So they kept getting work orders and 18 wereincluded-- well, strike that. 19 So they wouldreceive work orders, continue to receive workorders from you? 20 21 A. To myknowledge, he continued to get 22 work. Q. Andbe woald be included in any -- well. 28 24 not aecassarily any, in some portion of the
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Q. Wheredid that list comefrom? A. 1 generatedit. Frmn what source or sources? 0. A. From contractors that had done work for us before and whohad the expertise to do ramp work. Q. Whywouldn't L.P. Consulting be included? A. Because this was enough competition right here. Q. Wouldthere be any harm in including L.P.? A. You can include the whole world, but he was not excluded for any particular reason. Wejust had enough competition. Q. So you included five contractors with a prior track record with the USPS just for no but particular reason excluded L.P.? MS. KIRCHNER: Objection, misconstrues testimony. BY THE WI'IqqESS: A. Under the guidelines, we don't need reasons to exclude anyone. If you've got enough competition, you have enough competition. I don't want to put ten contractors here.
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idnntificafion, as of'619/04.) 2 BY MR. PROSEN: 3 Q. So Mr. Fernandez in the last exhibit we 4 just mentioned or were discussing, Exhibit 40, 5 wanted to add someone else, and you said that's 6 fine. 7 But what does this letter say? This 8 letter makes a similar request directly to you, 9 doesfft it? April 30, 1997, L.P. Consulting, 10 "Mr. Rigsby: Our firm is interested in being placed I 1 on A.M.Fernandez, architect solicitation bid list 12 for the facilities in your jurisdiction." 13 MS. KIRCHNER:What's the question? 14 BY ivIR. pROSEN: 15 Q. Do you see the letter? Do you recall 16 seeingthis letter or receiving this letter? 17 A. I think I do remember seeing this 18 letter. 19 Q. Do you ever respond to this letter in 20 writing or verbally? 21 A. I don't recall having responded to it. 22 Q. Can you explain to me why 23 lVlr. Femandez'ssuggestion for a contractor or 24 Mr. Fernandez's request to add a contractor is
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I BY MR. PROSEN: 2 Q. Wouldn'tthat be possibly a basis for 3 getting a better price? 4 A. Adequate competition is what the 5 guidelinescall for. 6 Q. But you don't want to do anymore than 7 adequate? 8 A. There's no need to. Q. On the second page, Mr. Fernandez says 9 I0 he's adding Phoenix Construction Company his own. on 11 I guess Mr. Fernandezthought it wouldbe fun to add 12 another one. Did you authorize him subsequently or 13 14 advise him if they could participate as he asked? A. I sure did. I5 Q. So maybe five wasn't enough; maybe six 16 17 was? lg A. No, no, that wasn't the point. The t 9 point was if this person had contacted him and asked 20 to be addedto the ramps, I honoredthat request. Q. Let's go two more exhibits to 56, 21 22 E:daibit4 I. (WHEP,.EUPON, certain document was a 23 marked Rigsby E~ibit No. 41 for 24
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~anted and Nix, Battaglin's was not? A. Are you speaking about the ramps? Q. Yeah, "Our firm is interested in being placed on A.M. Fernandez's architect~raI solicitation bid list for the facilities in your jurisdiction." It references exterior concrete on these two projects. Did Mr. Fernandez have scopes of work of any significance outside of the bandicap ramps? MS. KIRCHNER:Objection, ambiguous, confusing. BY Tt-]E V'TITNESS: A. I thought what we were discussing here is the ramps, and I think this is referencing the ramps. And if it is referencing tbe ramps, those -the decision had been made on that a year before this letter was written. BY MR. PROSEN: Q. What about interior remodeling? Let's put aside the ramps for a second. What about interior remodeling? A. A.M. Fernandez was not soliciting ['or interior remodeling on anytl]ingtbatIkno;vof. Q. So they just did handicap ramps, 29 (Pages 113 to 116:}
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