Free Response to Motion - District Court of Federal Claims - federal

Case 1:06-cv-00407-ECH

Document 75-9

Filed 10/15/2007

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IN THE UNITED STATES COURT OF FEDERAL CLAIMS
No. 06-407T

4 (into which have been consolidated Nos. 06-408T,

5 06-409T, 06-410T, 06-411T, 06-810T, 06-811T)
6

-----x

7 ALPHA I, L. P., by and through

8 ROBERT SANDS, a notice partner,

10 -vs13
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Plaintiff

)Case No. 06-407T

11 THE UNITED STATES,

12 Defendant

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Deposi tion of ROBERT SANDS taken pursuant to

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16 notice at Constellation Brands, 370 Woodcliff Drive,
17 Suite 300, Fairport, New York on Wednesday, June 13,

18 2007 commencing at 9:30 a.m.
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20 Reported by:
21 COMPUTER REPORTING SERVICE

22 Amy M. Condon, CSR, RPR
23 270 Reynolds Arcade Bui lding

24 16 East Main Street
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Rochester, New York 14614

~ GOVERNMENT

.J C: I
COMPUTER REPORTING SERVICE

f EXHIBIT

APP-A-00044

Case 1:06-cv-00407-ECH
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Document 75-9
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Filed 10/15/2007
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R. Sands - Examination by Mr. Herrin

R. Sands - Examination by Mr. Herrin

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MR. JONES: Same instruction. Have you -did you look at any documents at our request or in our presence, you don't have to answer that question. But
you looked at documents other than our request or in our presence, then you can answer the question.
if

MR. HERRIN: All right. I can live with
that.
BY MR. HERRIN:

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Q. How many meetings did you attend with Heritage Personnel?
A. I don't know.

THE WITNESS: I think I already answered that. I didn't look at anything beyond what you requested or in your presence and therefore, there is nothing further I can say on this topic.
BY MR. HERRIN:

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Q. Approximately?
A. I don't know.

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Q. More than one?

A. Yes.
Q. More than five? A. I don't know.

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Q. Okay. Because I think we're entitled to know
what you did in preparation, I wil have to ask you

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those specific questions, to say I'm not answering on advice of counsel because I don't know whether it will be an issue or not. I want to clear this, you are
refusing to answer on the instruction of counseL.

Q. As fai' as actual meetings, not telephone
conversations, did the meetings that you attended, wei'e

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they conducted here in New York, Rochester, were they in Dallas or someplace else?
A. Rochester.

I just want to ask the question again, I know it's

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been asked but I want an answer in the proper format. MR. JONES: Actually he did answer based on my instructions. He didn't refuse to answer. He answered it with my instruction not to reveal documents that we asked him to review or documents that he reviewed in our presence, he said he reviewed no other documents.

Q. The initial meeting, do you recall when that
happened? Again, I'm dealing just with meetings, not
telephone calls.

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A. No. Q. All right. Do you recall who attended?
A. Are you asking do I recall everyone who

attended the first meeting?

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R. Sands - Examination by Mr. Herrin

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R. Sands - Examination by Mr Herrin

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Q. Yes.

Q. Yes. But you said Richard attended so I had
to be su reo

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A. I don't really recall the first meeting.
Q. Okay. Do you recall anything about the first meeting?

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A. I am assuming Richard attended that meeting.

I believe he attended that meeting, let me put it that
way.

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A. Not really, no.
Q. The purpose of

it?

Q. All right. As far as -- tell me the meetings
that you recalL. Let's go with that. Your recollection.

A. To discuss, you know, various ideas that they
had relative to financial planning and other concepts. Q. Okay. Was this meeting different from
subsequent meetings in terms of how it evolved, what
they were presenting?

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A. There were a number of meetings and I really
have a very vague recollection of the specific

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meetings. I mean, you know, we're talking quite a few
number of years ago and I just don't recall all of

A. 1 don't really remember the first meeting
other than -Q. Just having a meeting?
A. -- there was a meeting and I know that we
discussed various financial planning type concepts.

the

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meetings with Hei'itage.

Q. All right.
A. I'm not trying to be diffcult but, yoii know. Q. I understand. There's a time frame issue
here. As far as again the meetings that were held, who attended any of the meetings with regai'd to yourself and your family and I'm going to include Andrew Stern in terms of family,

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That's all I remember about the first meeting.

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Q. I want to go a little bit deeper. Just as
far as in terms of yourself and your family members, do you recall who would have attended that meeting?

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A. I believe Richard attended that meeting. Q. Richard and yourself or just Richard? A. I assume you're talking about a meeting that
I was at?

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A. I don't recall him attending any meetings. Q. How aboiit your mother, did she ever attend
any of the meetings?

COMPUTER REPORTING SERVICE

COMPUTER REPORTING SERVICE

APP-A-00045

Case 1:06-cv-00407-ECH
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Document 75-9
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R. Sands - Examination by Mr. Herrin
explained the potential savings to YOIi?

R. Sands - Examination by Mr. Herrin

Q. Okay. At that time what was the tax status
that you spoke about as you understood it?

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savings, I agree with that terminology, but so -- so you might want to restate your question.
A. I'm not sure if

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A. Well, when I say tax - personally when I say
tax status, we talked about our taxes.

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Q. All right. Tax reduction, is that better? A. I would restate the question.
MR. JONES: How about just tax issues?
BY MR. HERRIN:

Q. All right.
A. As opposed to, YOIl know, whether we're a not for -- we talked about our individual tax
circumstances, how is that?

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Q. We'll try tax issues. Only reason I'm hesitant is was Heritage providing you legal advice?

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Q. All right. As far as what you describe as
what they might be, what were those discussions? A. YOIi know, as I said, we talked aboiit a whole variety of matters, whether it woiiid be estate matters and other matters.

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A. They were not acting as our attorneys. Q. All right. We'll try it. As far as tax
issues, who on behalf of Heritage discussed tax issues with you?

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Q. Well, let's start with the estate matters.
What were the discussions with regard to the estate matters?

A. Gary Prinbly (phonetic.)
Q. Anybody else?

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A. You know, all the ones that -- I don't recall
specifically who said what. So it's hard to know

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A. We talked about, you know, the fact that we
could have significant taxable estates that, YOIl know,

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beyond Gary, but let's say Gary Kornman for siire.

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there is tax planning that coiild go on that could be
helpful in that regard, things to this effect.

Q. And what were those issues that were
discussed?

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Q. All right. As far as being helpful, how was
it to be helpful for that estate planning purposes, what was the disciission about, how did they say they coiiid help you?

A. Well, we talked about taxation in general and
what our tax status was and, you know, what oiir taxes might be under a variety of circumstances.

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COMPUTER REPORTING SERVICE

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R. Sands - Examination by Mr. Herrin

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R. sands - Exaininatioti by Mr. lierrin

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A. By doing things that potentially woiiid result
in less estate taxation than more estate taxation. Q. What type of things'!
A. Well, you know, I don't remember the -- I

biit --

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A. But I don't remember the specifics of those
conversations.

Q. That's fine.
But generally speaking, what did Heritage say they
could do with regard to the estate planiiing aspects fOl'

don't remember the specifics of the conversation to
tell you the truth.

Q. Well, generally do you recall what types of things you agreed to do in furtherance of trying to minimize the taxes?

you?

A. What did they -- I don't remember the
specifics of the conversation.
Q. Well, generally though?

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A. Well, clearly at one point we must have
talked about CRUTS.

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A. They thought they could be helpful to liS in
striictui'ing things that could be, you know, beneficial to us from an estate planning point of view iii genei-l. Whether it was tax or other objectives that we might be able to -- that we wei'e trying to accomplish in oiir estate planning.
Q. And specifically with regard to taxes, how
did they say they could be beneficial?

Q. Okay. What was the -- tell me what YOIl recall from those conversations.

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A. \Vell, first of all, you know, there were
othei' attorneys -- there were attorneys present who
were advising liS, you know, on some of

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the estate

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taxation matters as well. As I said, Gary was not advising liS with respect to legal matters per se, but, you know, we talked about

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A. Depending on what our other objectives were
there may be favorable tax conseqiiences versus other
things, i.e., give all your money to your wife, thei'e
is no tax if yo ii die, ifyou predecease YOIII' wife. On

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how things like CRUTS work and how they might be used to fulfil our estate tax as well as income tax objectives as well as oiir charitable objectives for
our - as an example.

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Q. And I'm not dealing with the attorneys,
COMPUTER REPORTING SERVICE

you left your money to somebody else there might be taxes undei' those circiimstances. Things
the other hand, if

COMPUTER REPORTING SERVICE

APP-A-00046