Free Response to Motion - District Court of Federal Claims - federal

Case 1:06-cv-00407-ECH
wi tness : Chet Decker

Document 75-4

Filed 10/15/2007

Page 1 of 14

Page 1
UNITED STATES COURT OF FEDERAL CLAIMS

ALPHA I, L. P. ,
BY AND THROUGH
ROBERT SANDS,

A NOTICE PARTNER,

Plaintiffs,
V.
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,

No. 06-407-T

Defendant.
** * * * * * ** ** * * * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ** * * *** * * **** * *

ORAL DEPOSITION OF

CHET DECKER
AUGUST 28, 2007
VOLUME I
*** * * ** * ** * * * ** * * **** * * * * * ** * * *** * * * ** * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * * * *

ORAL DEPOSITION OF CHET DECKER, produced as a
wi tness at the instance of the Defendant, and duly

sworn, was taken in the above-styled and numbered cause
on the 28th day of August, 2007, from 3:13 to 4:15 p.m.,

before Stacey R. Cruz, CSR in and for the State of Texas, reported by machine shorthand, at the offices of
Department of Justice, Tax Division, located at 717
North Harwood Street, Sui te 400, Dallas, Texas, in

accordance with the United States Court of Federal

Claims and the provisions stated on the record or

attached hereto.

'" GÒVERNMENT

1 EXHIBIT
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APP-A-00001

214-220-1122

Case 1:06-cv-00407-ECH
Wi tness : Chet Decker

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Filed 10/15/2007

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1 2

A. I i d say roughly slx months.
Q. And what was that -- what was that time period?

3 Do you remember?
4

A.

I believe I went there from March of '01

5 through, probably - - maybe Augus t or September.
6

Q. Okay. And what was your job title with

7 Heri tage?
8
9

A. Initiator.
Q. And what does an "initiator" do?

10

A. We were to call through a prescribed list of

11 individuals each day and attempt to engage them in
12 conversation, talk to them, and set up an appointment
13 for the senior principals of the firm to go meet wi th

14 them.
15

Q. And what -- what was Heri tage selling? What

16 were you talking to these people about? 17 A. Tax strategies.
18

Q. Do you - - can you give me abetter description

19 of" tax strategies"?
20

A. Well, I would say estate planning and capi tal

21 gains.
Q. Okay. Were you discussing the elimination of 23 capi tal gains tax wi th these people?
22 24

A. Yes.
Q. And how many phone calls would you make in a -HUNDT REPORTING

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Case 1:06-cv-00407-ECH
Wi tness : Chet Decker

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1 telephone conversations with clients?
2

A. We had to record all conversations, whether

3 they were incoming or outgoing, wi th the exception of
4

the s ta tes that have no record laws.

I think there's

5 five states; I don't remember all five, but we had it

6 posted there so if a call was coming in, and the
7 person i s name came up on a screen, we could see what

8 state they were in and then determine there whether or
9 not we were supposed to record the conversation.
10

Q. Did you have to actually hi t a button on your
A. They had a recording sys tem set up.
It was a

11 phone that would s tart recording then?
12

13 standard tape recorder set up, just a standard tape
14 recorder set up at your desk that was routed through the

15 phone system.
16

Q . Okay.

So every telephone call that you made or

17 received with a client was recorded?
18
19

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever have any in-person meetings wi th
A. No.
Q. All -- so you only had telephonic meetings wi th

20 clients?
21
22

23 clients? 24 A. Correct.
25

Q. Okay. What would you do with the tape after
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wi tness : Chet Decker
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1
2 3

Ri chard Sands or
A.
Q.

More

the Sands Family? than likely, it probably was.

Okay.

4
5

A.
Q.

Yes.
SO

-- okay.

When you

--

when

you got the tape,

6 you said you labeled it. What did you label it wi th?
7 8
9

A. A little sticker
Q. But what did you write on it?
A. -- like, the stickers that would come with the

10 11

tape. Ghee, like I'm

I'm

Q. Would you wri te the name or the PC ID numer

12 or. . .
13

A. Maybe both -- probably both.

14 15

Q. Okay.
A.

I'm - - I i m trying to remember.

I t's been

16 several years. But whatever they required us to do,
17 that's -- that's what I would have done, because, like I
18 said, every li ttle thing that we did was -- was checked

19 by someone.
20

Q. Was every tape that you had from a phone

21 conversation with a client actually transcribed?
22
23

A. From what I could tell, yes --

Q. You never

24

A. to the best of my knowledge, and then those

25 tapes would be recycled.
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Wi tness : Chet Decker

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1 we'll talk about it afterwards. I can't remember

2 whether it's that part or whether it's the stuff that we
3

got under the subpoena.

I think it's the stuff we got

4 under the subpoena.
5

MR. CULLINAN:

Okay. But it's something

6 tha t you guys produced to us?
7

MR. HERRIN: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
MR. CULLINAN: Okay. That's all I'm

8

9 asking.
10

Q.

(BY MS. JOHNS) Was there ever a time when you

11 were recording a telephone conversation with a client
12 that you would turn off the tape, for any reason?
13

A. Not that I can recall.
Q. Okay. Now, once you turned in the tape to the

14

15 transcription department, and they transcribed the tape i

16 what would happen wi th the transcription record?
17

A.

I guess it would be funneled up the chain of

18 command.
19

Q. Did you ever recei ve a copy of the
A.
I don't believe so.

20 transcription yourself for -- for your review?
21

I -- I don't re- -- I

22 don't remember if we -- if we did or not.
23

Q. But do you ever recall reviewing the

24 transcripts for accuracy or. . . 25 A. Not any of them in particular i no.
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1
2

Q. Okay. And then what would happen to the actual
tapes?
A. They would erase them and recycle them.

3

4
5

Q. Okay.
A. And we would
there was just, like, a bin of

6 empty tapes that we'd go to if we needed more tapes if
7 we needed more tapes that were previously used tapes.
8

Q. Okay. Do you know how long - - you - - you

9 turned in your tapes at the end of the day or at the end

10 of each phone call or...
11

A. Both.

I think -- well, actually, I think

12 somebody would come by our office, if I remember
13 correctly, every 45 minutes to an hour, and if we had a

14 report and a tape, they would - - they would pick it up
15 and take it, if I remember correctly.

16 But I also seem to remember sometimes

17 dropping it off at that department, as well, so that
18
19

tha t 's a tough one to answer. I believe it was both. Q. Just to the best of your memory. That i s fine.
A.

20

I think it was both. You know, they had people

21 come by to check, Hey, do you have one to turn in or
22 not, or if we had one, then -- then we would turn one in

23 if somebody hadn't stopped by, I guess.
24

Q. And do you know how long it would typically

25 take the transcription department to actually transcribe
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Wi tness : Chet Decker

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1 2
3

a tape?

A. Exactly how long, no.

Q. Just an estimate.
A. If I was to estimate, 24 to 48 hours, probably.

4
5

Q. Okay. And you mentioned a debrief, and I think

6 I have a copy of your -- one of your debriefs here.

7 If you'll look at Exhibi t 18.
8 9

A.

(Wi tness complies.)

Okay.

Q. Now, is this -- are you familiar wi th this

10 document?
11
12

A. Yes, I just read it.
Q. Is this what you mean, what you refer to as a

13 debrief?
14

A. Yes, but I think ours were handwritten, and

15 this might be a transcription of that.
16

Q.

So you would handwri te a debrief, and then they

17 would copy it?
18

A. Yes, if

if memory

in fact, I don't know

19 -- I think we spoke that into the recorder.
20

Q. Okay. Because that's why -- it says "end"
A. Yeah, I'm
again, I'm just going from memory.

21 here, which makes me think it -22

23 I know that we had to do some type of debrief, maybe

24 maybe we handwrote it and then spoke it into the

25 recorder, and then that was it.
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Wi tness : Chet Decker

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Filed 10/15/2007

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1 2

A. More than likely.
Q. Now, was -- this debrief that we just looked

3 at, was that a type of document that was -- that
4 Heri tage normally kept in the regular course of its

5 business?
6 7

A. Yes.
Q. And was this debrief made in accordance with

8 the normal business practices of Heri tage?
9

A. Yes.

10

Q. Okay. We will move on to your transcript,

11 which is on page -- which is Exhibit 3. And this is a
12 transcription of a meeting set with PC Richard Sands.
13

What does "PC" stand for? Is that

14 prospective client?
15 16

A.

It

it could be.

Q. Okay. And date is May 10th, 2001. And once

17 again, you see your initials, CRD, and colon, ALK.
18
19

A. Yes.
Q. Do you know who "ALK" is?

20 21

A. That would, again, probably be the transcriber. Q. Okay. And once again, this lS of a

22 conversation dated May 10th of 2001, and at the bottom
23 it says, ALK: May 15th, 2001.
24

Do you see that? I'm sorry, at the very

25 bottom?
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1
2 3

A. Yes, I do. Q. I'm trying to go fast.
A. That's okay.
Q. Because I know your car

4
5 6

A. Yeah, that's all right. Yes.
Q.

Is -- do you think this date refers to the date

7 it was transcribed?
8 9

A. I guess it could have been.

Q. Okay.
A.
It seems to make sense.

10

It i S continui ty wi th

11 the other letter.
12

Q. Uh - huh. Okay.

13 Now, is this -- you -- you've -- have you
14 seen any of the transcripts that Heri tage prepared in

15 the past while you were working for Heri tage? Have you 16 ever seen what they actually looked like when you were

17 working for Heritage?
18

A. We may have seen samples for training purposes,

19 maybe for cri tique purposes, if something was said or 20 grammar was not appropriate, I guess, and then they may
21 pull it aside and -- or point something out -22

Q. Okay.

23 24

A. -- too.
Q. Looking at this transcript in front of you

25 that's been marked as Exhibit 3, is this the type of
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Witness: Chet Decker

Document 75-4

Filed 10/15/2007

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1 transcript that was kept by Heri tage in the regular

2 course of its business?
3

A. It appears to be, yes.
Q. And were these -- was this transcript made in

4

5 accordance wi th the normal business practices of

6 Heri tage?
7

A. It looks to be.
Q. And was it the regular practice of Heri tage to

8

9 make these sort of transcription records?
10 11
12
13

A. You mean would they do it regularly?

Q. Yes.

A. Yes.
Q. That's exactly what I mean. Thank you.

14 Did you notify the clients that they were
15 being taped when you had the phone conversations with

16 them?
17

A. No.

18

Q. Was ita policy of Heri tage to not tell the
A. Absolutely.

19 clients they were being recorded?
20

21
22

Q. Okay. And was there a reason given or. . .
A. Well, I -- I guess they probably wouldn't want

23 somebody - - somebody probably wouldn't want to talk to
24 you if you make them feel very uncomfortable if they

25 were going to know that the conversation's recorded.
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1 2

Q. Okay.
A. So the way they explained it to us, as long as

3 one person in a conversation knows that it's being

4 recorded, then it i S not illegal -5 6 7

Q. Okay.
A. -- is what we were told.
Q. And this is the type of document that was

8 generated in connection -- that would have been
9 generated in connection with your work at Heritage?
10 11
12 13

A. Yes.

MR. HERRIN: Give us 30 seconds.
MR. CULLINAN: Sure.
MS. JOHNS: We'll go off the record for 30

14 seconds.

15 (Off the record for less than one minute.)
16

Q.

(BY MS. JOHNS) Mr. Decker, you have had a

17 chance to look at the transcript- that I faxed to you.

18 Have you -- or have you had a chance -19

A. Yes.
Q. -- to look at the transcription that I faxed to

20

21 you?
22
23

A. Yes, I have.

Q. Okay. And after reviewing it, does it

24 correlate with your -- or does it -- with your memory of

25 the conversation that you with the Sands?
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Wi tness : Chet Decker

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1
2

A.

It does.

Q. Okay. Yeah, and I'm refer- -- what I'm

3 referring to is the -- Government Exhibi t 3.

4 So, yeah, you're -- you i re looking at the

5 right thing.
6

A. Okay.
Q. But I just want to make sure, as far as your

7

8 memory goes, that it's -- relates to the conversation

9 you had wi th the Sands that was a part 0 f thi s - - made

10 part of this transcript.
11 12
13

A. Yes.
Q. Okay.
MS. JOHNS:

I guess we don't have anything

14 else.
15

MR. CULLINAN: Okay.

I'll jump right in,

16 unless you want to -17

MS. JOHNS: No, go ahead.
MR. CULLINAN :
I should be about 15

18

19 minutes, so hopefully -20
21

MS. JOHNS: So we might make it.
MR. HERRIN: Okay.

22 EXAINA TI ON
23 BY MR. CULLINAN:
24
25

Q. When you contacted a prospective client, did
they ever ask you

well, you contact a prospective
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1

I mean, I can -- I can tell just by reading

2 some of the way that my sentences were were recorded,
3 I just -- I don't talk in that manner. So from -- from
4

my opinion, yeah, I would

i would think that they

5 might have cut some corners.
6

MR. CULLINAN: I'll pass the witness.

7 FURTHER EXAINATION
8 BY MS. JOHNS:
9

Q. You just testified that you think maybe they

10 might have cut some corners in these transcripts.
11
12

A. Yes.
Q. And while maybe they
you've testified they

13 may not be word-for-word, but ls the gist of the

14 conversation, the substance of the conversation that i s
15 shown and set out in this transcript that i s Government

16 Exhibi t 3, is there any reason that you would doubt that

17 the substance of the conversation occurred as it did,

18 based on this transcript? 19 A. No. It does capture the gist of the
20 conversation, but it just, in -- based on what his

21 question was, the transcribers were supposed to do it
22 exactly word-for-word, every cough, every hiccup, I

23 mean, anything was supposed to be included, and just
24 based on my memory of the conversation and reading how

25 -- how I spoke, I -- I i d have to say that that just
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wi tness : Chet Decker

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1

wasn i t done.
MS. JOHNS:

2
3

Okay.

Nothing else.

(Proceedings concluded at 4:15 p.m.)

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