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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO Criminal Action No. 04-cr-103-REB UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Plaintiff,

NORMAN SCHMIDT, GEORGE ALAN WEED, CHARLES LEWIS, MICHAEL D. SMITH, Defendants. _______________________________________________________________ REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT TRIAL TO JURY - VOLUME XVII _______________________________________________________________ Proceedings before the HONORABLE ROBERT E. BLACKBURN, Judge, United States District Court for the District of Colorado, commencing at 8:35 a.m., on the 26th day of April, 2007, in Courtroom A701, Alfred A. Arraj United States Courthouse, 901 19th Street, Denver, Colorado. APPEARANCES WYATT B. ANGELO, MATTHEW KIRSCH, Assistant United States Attorneys, 1225 Seventeenth Street, #700, Denver, Colorado, appearing for the Government. Suzanne M. Claar, Official Reporter 901 19th St. Denver, Colorado, 80294-3589 (303)825-8874 PROCEEDINGS REPORTED BY MECHANICAL STENOGRAPHY TRANSCRIPTION PRODUCED BY COMPUTER

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APPEARANCES (Continued) PETER R. BORNSTEIN, 1600 Broadway, #2350, Denver, Colorado, THOMAS J. HAMMOND, 1544 Race Street, Denver, Colorado, appearing with Defendant Schmidt. THOMAS E. GOODREID, 1801 Broadway, #1100, Denver, Colorado, appearing with Defendant Weed. RONALD GAINOR, 6414 Fairways Drive, Longmont, Colorado, appearing with Defendant Lewis. DECLAN J. O'DONNELL, 777 Fifth Street, Castle Rock, Colorado, RICHARD N. STUCKEY, 2150 West 29th Avenue, #500, Denver, Colorado, appearing with Defendant Smith.

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P R O C E E D I N G S (Proceedings resumed at 8:35 a.m.) THE COURT: Thank you, and please be seated. I see it And that's

didn't get any cleaner on my desk up here overnight. not an implied criticism of Mrs. Kramer. Very well. Mr. Schmidt, good morning. Good morning.

MR. SCHMIDT: THE COURT: MR. WEED: THE COURT: MR. LEWIS: THE COURT: MR. SMITH: THE COURT: MR. ANGELO:

Mr. Weed, good morning. Good morning, your Honor. Mr. Lewis, good morning. Good morning, your Honor. Mr. Smith, good morning. Good morning. Counsel, good morning. Good morning, your Honor. Good morning, your Honor.

MR. BORNSTEIN: THE COURT:

Ladies and gentlemen generally, good

morning and ladies and gentlemen of the jury, good morning. THE JURY: THE COURT: Good morning. I presume we are prepared to proceed. If

so, the government may call its next witness. MR. GOODREID: remind you. THE COURT: Oh, thank you. And hold that thought. Your Honor, you indicated I was to

Ladies and gentlemen, please be advised that as a

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result of business transacted outside your presence and hearing, I have admitted defendant Weed Exhibit 228, which may now be published. MR. GOODREID: THE COURT: Thank you, your Honor.

You are welcome. Your Honor, may I confer with government

MR. GOODREID: counsel for a moment? THE COURT:

You may.

Thank you.

MR. GOODREID:

Your Honor, actually we will do this

through the ELMO and, unfortunately, like my colleague Mr. Gainor, I am not terribly ELMO proficient, so if I could have some assistance, it would be greatly appreciated. THE COURT: Help is en route. Thank you. And we will focus And then to

MR. GOODREID:

Your Honor, I have 228 up here. there on the bottom paragraphs. page 3. Thank you, your Honor. THE COURT:

And go to page 2.

Counsel, you are welcome.

Now, if the

government is prepared, it may call its next witness. MR. ANGELO: Thank you, your Honor. We would call

Lambros Gianos at this time. THE COURT: Good morning, sir. If you would make your

way forward to be sworn by the court. you will come stand in this open area.

To accomplish that, if Right about there is

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fine.

I am going to administer the oath.

If you will face me

and raise your right hand to be sworn.

Thank you.

May I have your attention in the courtroom. (Lambros Gianos was sworn.) THE WITNESS: THE COURT: witness stand. I do, your Honor. Please be seated in that As you testify, please

Thank you.

And again good morning.

use the microphone in front of you.

By its peculiar design, it

works best with a speaking distance of about six to eight inches. Mr. Angelo. MR. ANGELO: Thank you, your Honor. DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. ANGELO: Q Please state your name and spell both your first and last

name, please. A Q A Q Lambros Gianos, L-A-M-B-R-O-S, G-I-A-N-O-S. Can you tell us what in city and state you reside? Englewood, Colorado. Mr. Gianos, you have some papers in front of you there. Are

those for refreshing your memory or recollection? A Q Yes, sir. One of the things we want you to do at this point is to try

to testify from your own memory at this point, and if you need assistance, then we can talk about that, okay?

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Lambros Gianos - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Of course. THE COURT: them over. BY MR. ANGELO: Q A Q A Mr. Gianos, what is your business or occupation? I am a vice president for Security Title Guaranty Company. What do your duties entail? Pretty much overseeing the Denver metro operations for the I might ask if for now you will simply turn

company. Q A Q A Q And do you know a person by the name of Vaso Samaras? Yes, I do. And who is Vaso Samaras? She is a childhood friend of myself and my wife's. In 2002, did you have a discussion with Ms. Samaras about an

investment opportunity? A Q A Q A Q I did. And did she follow up on that investment opportunity? Yes, I did. Did you meet a Karen Lewis? Yes. And through Karen Lewis did you learn anything about the

investment opportunity? A Q A very little bit, just enough to get my interest piqued. And did you follow up then after your conversation with

Karen Lewis?

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Lambros Gianos - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q A Yes. And what did you do? Met with her at Macaroni Grill in 2002, discussed something She struggled through

she was interested in, medium-term notes.

an explanation of it, but she recommended I meet her father Chuck Lewis who had a much better grasp of the situation. Q A Q A Q Did that meeting occur? Yes, it did. Do you recall when that was? About a month later or so. Do you have any idea of when it would have been in 2002 by

the way of month? A Q I would say late 2002, October or November. Okay. And when you met with Mr. Lewis, where did that take

place? A Q A Mel's Diner. And who else was there? My boss was there, Karen was there, and actually my

brother-in-law was there also. Q And did Mr. Lewis describe the investment opportunity to

you? A Q A He did. How did he describe it? Pretty much a failsafe investment opportunity in medium-term That

notes, and the fact that the money does not leave a bank.

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Lambros Gianos - Direct it is scanned so-called by another bank. make five percent per month. Q Okay.

It's an opportunity to

And when you said failsafe, describe for us what you

are referring to. A He said the money goes into an account and it stays there.

It simply scans, and also it is insured by Lloyd's of London he mentioned. Q Did he indicate to you whether there was a minimum initial

investment required? A Five thousand. MR. HAMMOND: Your Honor, I will have to object on the

basis of hearsay, even though it's late. THE COURT: MR. ANGELO: Honor. THE COURT: Very well. Again, the objection is Response. I am not offering for the truth, your

respectfully overruled because this is not offered for a hearsay purpose, that is the truth of the matter asserted, but instead as a verbal act or as the effect of an utterance on a hearer, which is non-hearsay, again under McCormick on Evidence, Section 249, the sixth edition. And on that limited basis and for that limited purpose, the objection is overruled and the examination permitted. MR. HAMMOND: And with the court's permission, I would

like to maintain the objection until we get further notice.

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Lambros Gianos - Direct THE COURT: May we proceed on that basis, Mr. Angelo? MR. ANGELO: THE COURT: Of course, your Honor. And you will advise the court and counsel

when you stray from this area of examination. MR. ANGELO: THE COURT: Mr. Hammond. MR. HAMMOND: BY MR. ANGELO: Q Mr. Gianos, did Mr. Lewis tell you what would happen to the Thank you. I will. Thank you. Your request is granted,

money that you were thinking about investing? A Again, it's pooled, he mentioned, with other money. In

other words, he started mentioning these other people's names, Norm Schmidt, George Beros, and Peter Moss. pooled with that. Money would be

It is invested, or excuse me, put into a bank

account, and it is scanned, he kept saying. Q A Q Did he mention banks, international banks of any nature? Deutsch Bank. Do you recall him mentioning any famous people who were

investors in the program? A It's kind of funny. He took it as high as the White House,

actually, government individuals. Q A Explain that to us. If I remember correctly, he was talking about the high-end I think

people in the government who were involved with this.

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Lambros Gianos - Direct at one point he even took it up to the White House. Q As part of your investigation into this investment, did you

receive any materials to review? A Q Yes. If you would take a look at Government's Exhibit No. 420,

which is going to be handed to you by madam clerk there. A Q A Q A Any particular page? 420 is the tab number you would need to turn to. Yes. I recognize this.

And how do you recognize it? He explained to me again this was an insurance policy that

was taken out. Q A Q A Q A Who is "he"? Alan Weed was the gentleman referred to. By who? By Chuck Lewis. And when did you receive this document? I am going to say shortly after we did meet and I was

investing with her. Q And can you tell us, please, whose handwriting that is on

the document? A Q If I would look at mine I would say Chuck Lewis's. Were you present at the time that Mr. Lewis made those

notations on the document? A I don't recall.

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Q

Okay.

Lambros Gianos - Direct Now, let's take a look at Government's Exhibit No. Can you tell us what that is?

421, if you would, please. A

That was the attorney so-called, Gary Herbert, that was He is the one who can testify about Alan Weed and

representing.

the insurance policy. Q A Q A What time did you receive that document? At the same time I received the other one. And who did you receive that from? Chuck Lewis. MR. ANGELO: Your Honor, at this time we move for the

admission of Government's Exhibit 420 and 421. THE COURT: defendants? MR. HAMMOND: THE COURT: May I ask one question briefly? Thank you. Any objection by any one or more of the

You may.

EXAMINATION BY MR. HAMMOND: Q Regarding Exhibit 420, did you say you did or did not

recognize the handwriting with the numbers? A It looks familiar to the one I have, and that was Chuck

Lewis's I believe. MR. HAMMOND: THE COURT: On that basis I don't have an objection.

Any other objections?

Hearing none, Government's Exhibit 420 for identification admitted in evidence, with leave to publish.

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Lambros Gianos - Direct MR. ANGELO: Thank you, your Honor. BY MR. ANGELO: Q Mr. Gianos, based upon the conversation with Mr. Lewis and

the materials that you received, did you make a decision to invest? A Q A Q I did, sir. And how much did you decide to invest? The initial was 5,000. Take a look, please, at Government's Exhibit No. 422 in the

notebook in front of you. A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q Yes, sir. Do you have that document in front of you? I do. What is that document? That is my initial contract with Chuck Lewis. I am sorry. I apologize. Go ahead. With my initial investment of 5,000.

What is the date of that document? The 19th of October, 2002. And if that is the date of your investment, can you estimate

for us when your meeting was with Chuck Lewis? A Q A Q A couple of months before. Now, how did you get this document? From Chuck Lewis. And did you complete the blanks on the document itself?

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A Q

Lambros Gianos - Direct Yes, sir, I did. Did you receive a signed copy at some point by a

representative of Capital Holdings International? A Q A Q A Yes, sir, I did. Who did you receive that copy from? Actually it came via Vaso Samaras. Your friend? Our friend who, if I may add, was just running some She claimed she ran some documents for them. So

documents.

that's what she delivered. MR. ANGELO: Okay. At this time we move for the

admission of Government's Exhibit 422. THE COURT: defendants? Hearing none, Government's Exhibit 422 for identification admitted in evidence, with leave to publish. MR. ANGELO: Thank you, your Honor. If we could Any objection by any one or more of the

publish the first page. THE COURT: BY MR. ANGELO: Q Looking at that first page, the date of the document You are welcome. And you may.

October 19th of 2002? A Q Um-hm. Did you make your deposit or investment on the same date as

your contract?

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A Q

Lambros Gianos - Direct I don't recall. Okay. Let's take a look then at Government's Exhibit No.

423. A Q A

Do you recognize that document?

I do. What is that? That is the check I wrote to them on the date of 10/19 of

'02. Q A Q A Q A Q And with what banking institution? Bellco Credit Union. And did you deliver this check to somebody? I did. Who did you deliver it to? Vaso. And did this check clear your account shortly after it was

issued? A Yes, sir, it did. MR. ANGELO: Your Honor, at this time we move for the

admission of Government's Exhibit 423. THE COURT: defendants? Hearing none, Government's Exhibit 423 admitted in evidence, with leave to publish. MR. ANGELO: done at this time. THE COURT: It may. Thank you. Thank you, your Honor. We ask that be Any objection by any one or more of the

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Lambros Gianos - Direct MR. ANGELO: Thank you, Judge.

Mr. Kirsch has pointed

out to me that you did not rule on the admission of 421, which was offered. THE COURT: That's because I didn't hear it. Let us

The government has offered in evidence Government's

Exhibit 421 for identification. Any objection by any one or more of the defendants? Hearing none, Government's Exhibit 421 for identification admitted in evidence with leave to publish. MR. ANGELO: THE COURT: BY MR. ANGELO: Q Following your initial investment, Mr. Gianos, did you have Thank you, your Honor. You are welcome.

additional discussions with Mr. Lewis about adding money to the investment? A Q A I did. And describe those discussions for us, if you would, please. Once I started seeing a return on one, it started to be more Again, we started talking more about investing

tantalizing.

more, and he kept also asking for friends to come in or for other people to come in with me. Q A Q As investors? As investors, correct. Did you ultimately make additional investments in Capital

Holdings?

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A Q

Lambros Gianos - Direct I did make additional investments, yes. Prior to making those investments, did you have a meeting

with Norman Schmidt? A Q A I did. Tell us how that meeting came about. After the 5,000, I wanted to meet a little bit more who this I did get a chance to go out to his little location

person was.

on Holly, I believe it was, where I met with Chuck Lewis and Norm, and I believe Norm's wife was there as well that day in the meeting. Q A Describe this facility you went to. Seemed like a storage place for automobiles, race cars,

NASCAR to be specific. Q A Q A Q Whose cars did you understand those to be? Norm's. Did you find that to be impressive? Very. On the basis of that meeting, did you ultimately decide to

invest more money? A Q I did, sir. During the course of that meeting with Mr. Schmidt, did he

tell you anything about the investment program? A Pretty much the same thing that Chuck Lewis did, the same This whole thing of He also threw out

names of Peter Moss and George Beros.

medium-term notes, buying and selling monies.

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Lambros Gianos - Direct the fact that they owned the Redstone Castle. Q A Q Did he elaborate on who Peter Moss was? Peter Moss was the -When I say "he" I want to understand. Mr. Schmidt? Who are we talking

about? A

Norm and Chuck both described Peter as the key person, the

attachment to the government, the so-called person who allows all this to take place and happen. Q Was there any discussion about the charitable contributions

made by Capital Holdings for good purposes? A Q A Q A Absolutely. Can you tell us, please, who made those representations? Chuck Lewis. What did he tell you? Oh, that, um, they are very close to working with churches They even like to have anybody who benefits

and helping people.

from this help out churches and help out people as well. Q Mr. Gianos, did you receive any documentation of the

insurance that was represented to exist? A Q Yes, sir, I did. Can you take a look, please, at Government's Exhibit No. I am sorry. Let's back up. Do you have 424 in front of

424. you? A Q

I do, sir. After your initial investment, did you receive a

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Lambros Gianos - Direct confirmation of the receipt of those funds? A Q A Yes, I did. And what is Exhibit No. 424? This is basically an assurance that this would be held in Also showing that I have invested the

non-depleting accounts. $5,000. MR. ANGELO:

Your Honor, at this time I move for the

admission of Government's Exhibit No. 424. THE COURT: defendants? Hearing none, Government's Exhibit 424 for identification admitted in evidence, with leave to publish. MR. ANGELO: THE COURT: BY MR. ANGELO: Q Mr. Gianos, that references that you would get insurance Thank you, your Honor. You are welcome. Briefly. Any objection by any one or more of the

certificates sometime after your investment? A Q A Q That is correct. Did you receive those? I did. Now, take a look at Government's Exhibit No. 425 in the book

in front of you, if you would, please. A Q A May I take this out? Certainly. Thank you. Yes, sir, I recognize that.

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Q A

Lambros Gianos - Direct And what do you recognize those documents to be? This was represented as a certificate of insurance provided

to me. Q A And how did you receive those? I can't remember if this was mailed to me or, again, it was

delivered by Vaso. MR. ANGELO: Your Honor, we move for the admission of

Government's Exhibit 425. THE COURT: defendants? Hearing none, Government's Exhibit 425 for identification admitted in evidence, with leave to publish. MR. ANGELO: THE COURT: BY MR. ANGELO: Q Mr. Gianos, over the course of your investment in Capital Thank you, your Honor. You are welcome. Any objection by any one or more of the

Holdings, how much did you add to your investment? A Q For a total of -- it was just over a hundred thousand. Now, at some point did you request a disbursement of some of

those funds? A Q A Q A I did, sir. How much did you request back? Fifty thousand. Why did you make that request? At the time I was thinking about allowing some other people

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Lambros Gianos - Direct to come in and invest with us. I wanted to see if it was truly for real. I felt that if somebody can pull 50,000 out and get So two things; I wanted

it, there has to be something there. that, and I also wanted a 1099. Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q

And did you get the disbursement that you had requested? Very quickly, actually. And what impression did that create on you? It was a solvent situation. And what did you do in response? I then started turning other people onto this situation. Were any commissions discussed with you? Yes. Who discussed those with you? Chuck Lewis. What did he tell you about commissions that were possible? If I bring people in, they would pay commission as well. Did you in fact bring people in? I did, sir. Who did you bring in? Jim Flood, Jill Farquhar, Steve Genesis. Did you receive commissions for those investors? On paper, yes I did. How were those commissions then credited to you? Just on paper. Okay. Disclosed on a monthly basis.

Now, during the course of your discussions with

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Lambros Gianos - Direct Mr. Lewis or Mr. Schmidt, did either one of them discuss the fact that there were persons associated with Capital Holdings that had felony convictions? A Q A Q No, sir. Would that have made a difference to you as an investor? That would have made a huge difference to me. During the course of your investment and over the period of

time that you added to the investment, did they disclose to you that the funds were being used for purposes other than investing in medium-term notes? A Q A Q No, sir. Would that have made a difference to you? Absolutely. Do you recall talking with Mr. Lewis about the fact that

funds had been frozen at some point? A Q A I did. And how did that conversation come up? This other lady that I found as well, Candice Reed, who is

an agent, a real estate agent, had called me and said that she just got word that -MR. GAINOR: MR. ANGELO: Objection. Hearsay.

Offered for the purpose of showing the

effect on the hearer, your Honor. THE COURT: With that purpose, the objection based on The examination is allowed.

hearsay is overruled.

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Lambros Gianos - Direct Again, this examination is designed for the non-hearsay purpose of showing the effect of the statement by the declarant on this witness as the hearer. Evidence. Now, sir, you may answer that question, if you recall it and can answer it. THE WITNESS: THE COURT: Do you recall the question? I do, sir. Section 249, McCormick on

Can you answer it? I can.

THE WITNESS: THE COURT:

Please. Candice Reed called me and said The FBI went in. They took the

THE WITNESS: everything was frozen.

computers, and we don't know what's going on. BY MR. ANGELO: Q A Q A Q A What did you do in response to that? I called Chuck immediately. And did you reach him? I did. And what did he tell you about the situation? Just a misunderstanding. It's not a problem. We will get

everything corrected. Q A Q A

Don't worry about anything.

Chuck Lewis that you know in the courtroom today? Yes, sir. Can you point him out, please, for the court? Absolutely.

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Lambros Gianos - Direct MR. ANGELO: Your Honor, I ask the record reflect that he has identified the person standing as Mr. Lewis. THE COURT: Well, it was all done by way of pantomime

which doesn't play well, if at all, on the record. MR. GAINOR: THE COURT: We will stipulate as to I.D. Very well. No problem.

I presume the stipulation is

acceptable to the government? MR. ANGELO: THE COURT: by the court. granted. MR. ANGELO: THE COURT: MR. ANGELO: THE COURT: May I have a second, your Honor? Thank you, you may. Thank you, your Honor. We have no other questions at this time. Cross-examination on behalf of Mr. Smith It is of course, your Honor. It is now received, accepted, and approved

Your request for identification of Mr. Lewis is

THE WITNESS: by Mr. Stuckey. MR. STUCKEY: THE COURT:

Thank you, your Honor.

You are welcome. CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. STUCKEY: Q A Q Good morning, Mr. Gianos. Good morning, sir. As to Exhibit 423, the check for 5,000 written on

October 19th of 2002 by yourself, what do you have there in that

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binder? check? A Q A

Lambros Gianos - Cross We are looking on the screen. Is that in the binder there?

Do you have the actual

No, sir, it's not. Or a copy of it? I don't remember if I had a copy in here, sir. THE COURT: Excuse me. And Mr. Gianos, counsel, I

believe, is speaking about the evidence binder as opposed to your independent materials. THE WITNESS: My apologies. I misunderstood, sir.

Could you repeat the question again, sir. BY MR. STUCKEY: Q Exhibit 423 in the exhibit binder, do you have that before

you? A Q A Q A Q I do, sir. Is that -That is a copy, sir. A copy of the front of the check only? May I remove it? Yes. If you can pull it out. I didn't know if it was the

actual check or if it was a copy. A Q A Q No, sir. It's just a single copy of the front of the check.

Do you have the check yourself with you in your materials? I do not, sir. Does your bank return those checks to you or do they just

give you copies?

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A Q A Q A Q

Lambros Gianos - Cross I believe Bellco just gives copies, sir. Bellco Credit Union located where? The one that I was using was the one on Arapahoe Road. Here in Colorado, right? Havana and Arapahoe, yes, sir. In your conversations with these folks at Capital Holdings,

did they tell you that when you made out your check that they would just deposit it in their account at Wells Fargo Bank here in Denver? A They didn't specifically say Wells Fargo. They said my

account would also be deposited with theirs, pooled with some other monies as well. Q A Q Did they indicate that would be here in Denver? I do not recall at that time. Do you recall ever -- when the check cleared, as I assume it

did, and came back to you and you got your account, if Bellco gave you checks, do you remember looking at the back of it to see how they endorsed it and where it went? A Q A Sir, I believe I just got the statement from Bellco. I guess you didn't get the check? I don't believe I did, no. MR. STUCKEY: I guess that's what you said earlier.

That's all I have, your Honor. THE COURT: You are welcome, counsel.

Cross-examination on behalf of Mr. Weed, by

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Lambros Gianos - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. GAINOR: Q A Q A Q Good morning, sir. Good morning. It's Mr. Gianos? It is, sir. Sir, you said that you were employed or currently are Mr. Goodreid. MR. GOODREID: THE COURT: Mr. Gainor. MR. GAINOR: THE COURT: Thank you, your Honor. You are welcome. CROSS-EXAMINATION No, thank you, your Honor.

Cross-examination on behalf of Mr. Lewis by

employed as a vice president of Security Title Guaranty Company? A Q A Q A That is correct. Located in Cherry Creek? Correct. And exactly what does your company do? Basically what we do is we insure title in the case of

lending and/or real estate transactions. Q So you realize how important it is to maintain accurate

paperwork with regard to your profession? A Q Absolutely. You had an opportunity, sir, to be visited by an FBI agent,

someone by the name of Andrew Guthrie?

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A Q

Lambros Gianos - Cross That is correct. On September 24th, 2003, about three-and-a-half years ago.

Do you remember that meeting? A Q A Q A Q I do remember that meeting. Do you remember that that meeting occurred at your office? Yes. Do you remember that Mr. Guthrie was taking notes? I do. Were you ever notified that he prepared a report detailing a

summary of what you told him three-and-a-half years ago? A Q A Q A Sure. Was this report ever supplied to you? Yes. Can you tell us when it was supplied to you? Actually, the report that I received was just a couple of I shouldn't say that. A few weeks back when it came

days ago.

with this package here. Q So you were provided with the Federal Bureau of I have a copy in front of me,

Investigation summary of report.

and I have marked it as Lewis Exhibit 23. From time to time during this cross-examination, I am going to refer to it. And then what I am going to do, if

necessary, is show you a copy, my copy of it, and then ask you some questions and see if it refreshes your recollection. A Sure.

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Q

Lambros Gianos - Cross Comparing your recollection three-and-a-half years ago to sir?

what you said in court today, okay Mr. -A Q Yes. Okay.

The first thing I want to do, however, is ask you a You have

little bit about your contact with the prosecutors.

had the opportunity to meet Mr. Angelo and Mr. Kirsch prior to your testimony today? A Q A Q In person, no. Just on the phone.

You met them this morning before going on the stand? Correct. And when you got them on the phone, you talked to them about

the timing of your testimony, when you would be called potentially? A Q Potentially, yes. I worked with Donna Sommers on that.

Did you discuss with them the fact that you had received a

FBI 302 summary of interview prepared by Special Agent Andrew Guthrie? A Q I did receive it, yes. At the time you talked to them, did you make any corrections

or additions or deletions to that report? A Q A Q I did not make any corrections, no. So that report was accurate? From what I read, yes. If we can together, let's retrace some of your testimony and

more specifically some of your involvement in this investment

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Lambros Gianos - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 program. Now, if I understand your testimony correctly, you were first meeting directly with anyone other than the friend of the family Vaso Samaras? A Q A Q Vaso Samaras. Was with Karen Lewis? That's correct. You understand that Karen Lewis was and is Charles Lewis's

daughter? A Q A Q A Q Correct. She met you at the Macaroni Grill on Arapahoe Road? Um-hm. Yes or no, sir? Yes. And although she could not give you specific details, she Do

told you that this investment involved medium-term notes. you remember telling that to Andrew Guthrie of the FBI? A Q Yes.

And based on your observation of her, and on your decision

to go forward over the next couple of steps, she appeared to believe in what she was telling you? A Q She did, yes. Did you also know at that particular point she was an

investor? A Yes.

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Q

Lambros Gianos - Cross Your next step is to have a meeting with Chuck Lewis at And I believe you testified today that present at I will use the first

Mel's Diner.

that meeting was your brother-in-law. name, Vaso? A No, sir.

My brother-in-law is Dan Diamond.

I just had him

come along to kind of hear this out. it was, yes. Q A Q Was Vaso there, too? I believe she was. Okay.

Chuck and Karen I believe

At that particular meeting, as you recounted,

Mr. Lewis spoke to you about the safety of the investment, among other things, correct? A Q Yes. And that the money was insured by Lloyd's of London, and did

he mention at that particular point someone by the name of George Alan Weed? A Q Yes. And in fact, if we can have Exhibit 420 up, Government 420

which has already been admitted in evidence, if we could make the text a little larger, please. In connection with that

representation, you eventually received this letter from Weed Insurance? A Q I did. You have no reason to believe that on that day or even on

this day that Mr. Lewis -- can we see the letterhead -- was

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Lambros Gianos - Cross responsible for printing out that letterhead or anything like that, or signing the letter in someone else's name? A If Mr. Lewis was the one responsible for the letterhead of

Weed Insurance, Inc.? Q A Q A Q Right. I do not know if he was responsible, no. Let's go down to the signature block. May I review this document? Of course you can. There is a signature of Alan Weed at the

bottom of that letter? A Q There is. Okay. Now, you received this letter when in relation to the

representation by Mr. Lewis that there was insurance? A My recollection is I received this after my -- after my

investment. Q Okay. Well, you were also told about Gary Herbert at that A lawyer that had been working for or

second meeting, correct?

drafting some documentation with regard to Capital Holdings? A Sir, I apologize. The time frame is a little fuzzy. I was

told about Gary Herbert, but I can't recall if it was at that specific time. Q Do you remember telling Special Agent Andrew Guthrie of the

FBI during that first meeting with Charles Lewis that Mr. Lewis identified Gary Herbert as a local attorney who represented Capital Holdings? Do you remember making that statement?

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Lambros Gianos - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q Yes. All right. Do you remember also telling Special Agent

Andrew Guthrie of the FBI that you subsequently contacted Gary Herbert by telephone? A Q Yes. And do you remember telling Special Agent Andrew Guthrie

that Herbert independently confirmed that Capital Holdings held insurance through Alan Weed? A Q Yes. Do you remember telling that to Guthrie that that

confirmation occurred before meeting Norman Schmidt at the third meeting or the next meeting? A Q I believe so. Let's go a little bit more to the conversation of Gary Now, I know that your recollection was clearer

Herbert.

three-and-a-half years ago rather than it is now, so I know that you are going to rely on the representations that you told the FBI because you wouldn't lie to them, sir, would you? A Q I would not. When you spoke to Mr. Herbert you had more than a one-minute You didn't talk to his assistant. You

conversation with him.

spoke to him, did you not? A Q I spoke to him. You had a conversation that exceeded 20 minutes, didn't you,

sir?

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A Q

Lambros Gianos - Cross I do not recall that. He talked about the security of the investment and in no way

led you to believe that it was a scam or it was illegal, correct? A Q A Q Correct. Because if he would have, you would not have invested? Absolutely not. You knew that you were talking to a member who was a --

excuse me -- a lawyer who was a member of the Colorado bar? A Q A Q I didn't verify if he was a member of the Colorado bar, sir. You called him at his office in Denver, did you not, sir? Yes, I did. Did you know he was also an Assistant Attorney General for

eight years? A Q I did not. Charged with some of the most important work in the state of

Colorado during his tenure, setting up different projects, negotiating on the bar to the government. A Q No, sir, I did not. But in any event, Mr. Herbert, independent of Mr. Lewis, Did you know that?

confirms the fact that this investment in Capital Holdings is safe and secure; isn't that a fact? A From my recollection, sir, he confirmed that we had

insurance with Alan Weed, and it was part of Lloyd's of London. I cannot recall if he confirmed the legitimacy of Capital

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Lambros Gianos - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Holdings. Q But he told you there was nothing wrong with the program,

sir, did he not? A Q Agreed, yes. You also remember telling Special Agent Andrew Guthrie of

the FBI that at the conclusion of the meeting with Mr. Lewis, which was the first meeting at Mel's, Mr. Lewis recommended that you meet Norman Schmidt, the owner of Capital Holdings. remember that, too? A Q Yes. And do you remember -- and we will jump to the end of the Do you remember telling the FBI Do you

meeting with Norman Schmidt.

that it was after the meeting with Norman Schmidt that Gianos was convinced he should make an investment in Capital Holdings. Do you remember telling that to the FBI? A I think I added the word "additional" investments. I had

already made my first $5,000 investment. MR. GAINOR: With the court's permission I would like

to show the witness what has been marked as Lewis 23 and ask him to review it. THE COURT: MR. GAINOR: THE COURT: MR. GAINOR: BY MR. GAINOR: Leave is granted as requested. May I meet your clerk halfway? You may. Thank you, counsel.

Thank you.

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Q

Lambros Gianos - Cross Mr. Gianos, I would like you to review that entire report so But I would like to

we can get things accurate for the record.

ask you to focus on page 3, the top half, when you get a chance, with regard to specific conversations with Guthrie as to what occurred in your mind at the end of that meeting with Norman Schmidt. And when you are done and you are comfortable with

your recollection being refreshed, let me know, and I will take that report back from you. A Would you like me to read the whole thing, sir, or just that

portion of it? Q A Q A I think it might be a good idea for you to do that. Which one, sir? The whole report. All right, sir. MR. GAINOR: Your Honor, with the court's permission,

can we retrieve the report from the witness? THE COURT: MR. GAINOR: BY MR. GAINOR: Q Mr. Gianos, you have had an opportunity to refresh your You may. Thank you. Thank you.

May I meet the clerk halfway?

recollection of a report prepared three-and-a-half years ago by an experienced FBI agent, correct? A Q I have, yes. After this incident occurred, you read some of the details

of this case in the newspaper, did you not?

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Lambros Gianos - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q Yes. When you met with Special Agent Andrew Guthrie, he set up a

meeting in advance of coming down to your office? A Q A Q A Q A Q Correct. He was courteous and professional? Yes. He showed you his credentials? Yes. He told you he would be taking notes? Yes. And I believe you testified that three-and-a-half years

later a copy of this report was mailed to you by the prosecutors? A Q A Q Correct. Did you bother to read it when you got it? I scanned through it, yes. And in fact what you told us before we start -- I started

questioning you about the report is that you had no corrections or deletions to that report? A Q From what I read, no, I do not. All right. Do you remember now telling Special Agent Andrew

Guthrie three-and-a-half years ago, after the meeting with Norman Schmidt, I was convinced I should make an investment in Capital Holdings? A No. That was incorrectly stated there.

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Q A Q

All right. Yes.

Lambros Gianos - Cross So Special Agent Guthrie got it wrong?

But when given the opportunity to review this report prior

to your testimony and submit that as an error, you didn't do that? A Q I did not. You remember reading the second page of this report just a

minute ago, right, dealing with the first meeting with Charles Lewis? A Q Yes. Where you recounted for the agent three-and-a-half years ago

exactly what Mr. Lewis told you about the investment program? A Q Yes. Nowhere in this report is it mentioned that Mr. Lewis said

that this program was connected to people in the White House. And if you need to review the report again, I can have that shuttled over to you. A Quite all right, sir. In different meetings my recollection

today that was stated by Mr. Lewis. Q So your recollection today is better than your recollection

three-and-a-half years ago, sir? A No, sir. What I am implying is the recollection of the Again, I don't recall the

overall meetings with Chuck Lewis.

exact meeting at Mel's what specifically was said, but throughout all the different meetings with Chuck Lewis that was

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Lambros Gianos - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 stated. Q So maybe I got it wrong when I read this report as to the

summary of the second meeting, and it says that Chuck Lewis related that investor money was purchased in medium-term notes from European banks were traded. pretty detailed. A Q Did I get that wrong? I am

Or is that accurate?

That's accurate, yes. Lewis specifically mentioned that Deutsch Bank and World Did I get that wrong? Did

Bank are some of the note providers. Agent Guthrie get that wrong? A Q A Q

Those are the banks that Chuck Lewis said. So we got that detail in. Correct. But in the body there was no mention he mentioned White

House officials or famous people having -- being connected to the program. Agent Guthrie got that wrong too, he didn't

include it in his report? A Sir, it may not have been at that meeting is what I am

trying to explain to you. Q You had the opportunity to review this entire report. I

don't see it mentioned anywhere where Mr. Lewis talked about people from the White House or famous people being connected to this program. his report? A He might have omitted that, sir, yes. So did Special Agent Guthrie just leave it out of

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Q A Q

Lambros Gianos - Cross So he made another mistake? Possibly. It was important to you, I would imagine, now as you are

testifying in front of the jury that people from the White House invested in this program, an important detail? A Q A Q A Q A No. I found that kind of interesting, actually.

But you didn't find it important? I found it interesting. But you told it to Agent Guthrie, did you not? I did. You did? We talked about that, and also talked about some other

things as well. Q Did Agent Guthrie appear to be suffering from a hearing

disability during this meeting? A Q I don't believe so. Did he appear to be falling asleep at any time during your

dialogue with him? A Q Not that I remember. And of course after receiving a copy of this report three

weeks ago, you never submitted any changes or any comments to the prosecutors about things that were in it or not in it that were not accurate? A Q No, sir, I didn't. Correct? We know that you told Agent Guthrie at the

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Lambros Gianos - Cross conclusion of the interview that you were very upset as to what had occurred. A Q A Q I was. Do you remember that?

I remember telling him that, yes.

And you are still are? I am. Sir, going back to the Herbert conversation that occurred

sometime prior to your investment, did Mr. Herbert ever refuse to take your phone calls? A If I recall correctly, he wasn't easy to get ahold of, and I

got ahold of him one time. Q But when you got ahold of him, he didn't say, I couldn't

talk to you and put an associate or a clerk or a secretary on the phone, it was actually Gary Herbert, as far as you know? A Q Yes. What I am going to do for purposes of the remainder of this

examination is to classify your meetings with people connected to this program. fair? A Q A Q Yes. Meeting No. 2 with Chuck Lewis. Yes. Meeting No. 3 with Norman Schmidt and Chuck Lewis. Would Would that be fair? Meeting No. 1 is Karen Lewis. Would that be

that be fair? A Q Sure is. Are you telling us now there were additional meetings that

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Lambros Gianos - Cross were not included in Agent Guthrie's report? A Q Yes. Where supposedly Chuck Lewis talked about connections to the

White House? A The one meeting we are referring to, sir, is the one -- I But in regards to Chuck had introduced Would you like me to expand on

can't remember the page.

me to a gentleman named Brian. that? Q

Well, let me ask you some questions on it.

Then if we need

you to expand, I will allow you to do so. A All right. MR. GAINOR: If I may have a moment, your Honor, to

reference that meeting? THE COURT: BY MR. GAINOR: Q This was a meeting on December -- excuse me -Thank you. You may, counsel.

December 2002? A If that's what the report says, yes. I don't know the exact

date. Q A So you feel comfortable deferring to this report? Sir, I feel comfortable that's what I told Agent Guthrie at That's going to be around the date. But I remember

the time.

the meetings very specifically. Q Well, Agent Guthrie writes the first week of December of Does that sound accurate to you?

2002.

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A Q

Lambros Gianos - Cross As I recall, yes. And you attended a lunch meeting with Vaso Samaras? I am so

sorry. A Q That's all right. Samaras.

And Charles Lewis and a business partner of Lewis who was Does that refresh your recollection? I think it was

introduced as Brian. A Yes.

Karen came and some children also.

Chuck Lewis's grandchildren. Q And it was during this meeting that Brian expressed strong

opposition to the U.S. government? A Q Absolutely. And you are saying that it was during this meeting that

people from the White House were discussed as potential investors or real investors in the program? A Q A Q Yes. Do you want to review this report again, sir? I feel comfortable with it, yes. You realize, of course, that that conversation was never

included in Special Agent's report -- Special Agent Guthrie's report either so he got that wrong as well? A Yes. Because there were some additional things from that

meeting that I did talk to Agent Guthrie about. Q A Q That were not included? Apparently not. So Agent Guthrie's ability to summarize as an FBI agent is

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Lambros Gianos - Cross completely flawed, is it not, according to your opinion? A Q No, sir. I am not saying that at all.

And again when you had the opportunity to review this report

two weeks ago, you did not discuss this with the prosecutors, make a list of deletions or corrections for them to review with the agents? A Sir, I did not. I felt I was not going to be talking about

that today. Q But you knew that your report was going to be used, did you That was why it was sent to you?

not? A Q

Sir, that is not my report. The report of a summary of interview three-and-a-half years

ago with an FBI agent? A Q A Q Yes. You were sent that in preparation for your testimony? That is correct. Did you also know at the conclusion of the second meeting,

that would have been the first meeting with Charles Lewis, and again I don't want to confuse the jury. Karen Lewis is the

first meeting; the second meeting is with Charles Lewis; and the third meeting is with Norman Schmidt and Charles Lewis. Were you aware at the end of the second meeting that Charles Lewis was himself an investor in the program? A Q Yes. Or so he said.

You eventually went to a location and saw Norman Schmidt,

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Lambros Gianos - Cross saw the race cars. Now, again, I just want to make it clear for the record, do you remember telling Special Agent Guthrie that it was after this meeting that you decided to invest? A Sir, once again, after that meeting I told him that I felt After my

that I was going to make additional investments. initial 5,000. Q

You went to the location known as Smitty's Motor Sports and

saw how many different race cars there? A Q A Maybe a dozen. Fifteen, possibly.

Cars seemed to be in good shape? Fairly good shape, sure. I didn't take time to inspect

them. Q A Q But you saw them, sir, did you not? Of course. Some of the cars were outside the warehouse, some of the

cars were in the warehouse? A Q A Q The majority of the race cars were in the warehouse. Some of the cars were outside the warehouse? Other cars, yes. I don't know if it was there yet, but maybe you can tell us,

the 18-wheel Featherlight transport that was there? A Q I don't recall that. But you noticed what appeared to be the trappings of a

successful, or at least fairly well-financed race team, correct? A From what I was told, yes.

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Q

Lambros Gianos - Cross And as you said, pursuant to the prosecutor's questioning,

you were impressed by this? A Q A Q It was impressive, sure. And it was an open display of success? Of course. You asked for actually three disbursements, did you not,

sir? A Q I believe I did. Okay. Because the government talked about one. But there

was a $2,000 disbursement in November. A Q A Q I do.

Do you remember that?

Where you requested $2,000 back and you got a check back? I did. And then in December you requested a $3,000 disbursement off

your account, you got that as well? A Q Correct. And then it was in January that you did your test, where you

said, well, I am going to ask for 50,000, and Norm Schmidt can send me 50, then this thing is working? A Q A I agree. And you got a $50,000 check back? I did. MR. GAINOR: THE COURT: BY MR. GAINOR: If I may have a moment, your Honor? Thank you, counsel. You may.

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Q

Lambros Gianos - Cross Can we put up Government's Exhibit 421.

If we can enlarge Just a No. Go

the first half of the letter, including the letterhead. little bit higher so we can get a little bit more text. down. Thank you.

Sir, as part of your business in Cherry Creek, and I am sorry, you have been doing this for? A Q Nineteen years. Two decades. You are used to dealing with lawyers on

occasion? A Q I am. And when you decide to contact Gary Herbert for his

independent verification, you had no problem calling a lawyer's office on your own? A Q I do not. Now, this letter that you received, I see it's not addressed

to you? A Q It's not. But nevertheless you received the letter and you read it

carefully? A Q No. I did not read it carefully, sir.

And it was after receiving this letter that you contacted

Gary Herbert or before? A Q A It was after this. I am sorry. It was after contacting Gary Herbert?

It was after receiving the letter I contacted Gary Herbert.

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Q A

I see.

Lambros Gianos - Cross And I mean what made you contact Gary Herbert? The reason for this investment was again relying

Curiosity.

on my friend Vaso Samaras's credibility, which is why I skipped through some of this stuff and didn't spend much time. It was

curiosity to learn what Gary was about and what this letter represents. Q A Q A Now, Mr. Lewis was the person who supplied you this letter? I believe so, yes. But you are not sure? It's been quite a few years. Vaso or Chuck, but I would say

this one came from Chuck. Q A Q A Q But you are not sure because it's been quite a few years? I am not sure. You said it's been quite a few years, correct? Correct. But you remember that there was no handwriting on this

letter saying, do not call this lawyer, confidential? A Q A Q A Q Absolutely not. It's a clean letter like we see on the exhibit board today? Correct. Mr. Lewis ever try to talk you out of calling Mr. Herbert? No. He never tried to black out the name or number or signature

of Alan Weed on the insurance letter and insurance certificates? A No. He made it clear that it was there.

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Lambros Gianos - Cross MR. GAINOR: I have to ask for another moment, your Honor, if that's okay. THE COURT: MR. GAINOR: THE COURT: You may. Thank you.

Thank you. You are welcome. Cross-examination of this

witness on behalf of Mr. Schmidt by Mr. Hammond. MR. HAMMOND: THE COURT: Thank you, your Honor.

You are welcome. CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. HAMMOND: Q A Q Good morning, sir. Good morning. I want to talk to you a little bit about your work. You are

the vice president of Security Title and Guaranty Company, right? A Q Correct. And as we just heard, you have been in that for about 19

years? A Q Correct. You have been in that business itself for nineteen years,

not just as a vice president, right? A Q That is correct. And you know that that title and guaranty work is pretty

sophisticated work, right? A Absolutely.

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Q A Q

Lambros Gianos - Cross Because you don't just take people at face value, right? Agreed. And so when you look at documents, you kind of trace those

documents back, right? A Q Correct. As far as you can. And there is a reason for that, and that

reason is so that when people come to the table to do a real estate closing, that they have the assurances, from among other people, from you, that everything has been done to make sure that, for example, the title is clear on a piece of property, right? A Q Correct. And that everybody has searched to see if there is a lien or

some other claim against the property, right? A Q Correct. You don't simply talk to folks. You go to court records if

you have to find out if there are any liens or other claims; would that be fair? A Q Correct. There is different levels. When you actually trace or have

other people trace that information; would that be fair? A Q Absolutely. And you know that the purpose of that is to minimize the

risk for those people who are about to enter into a fairly important and sophisticated transaction, right?

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Lambros Gianos - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q A Q Correct. And you are kind of putting your name on it as well? Correct. Okay. Let me ask you, did you have other investments at the

time around the time that you got into this investment with Capital Holdings? A Q Absolutely. And when you got into those other investments, were those

yours or did you just go into one of those brokerage houses? A Q A Q No. Those are mine.

You do them personally yourself? Absolutely. And continuing with that work that you do where you know how

to do those traces and you know how to dig down another layer and another layer, is that what you do on those other investments? A My company does that, yes. I do not do that personally on a

daily basis. Q A Okay. Your company does? I am not understanding your question,

Does the tracing.

sir. Q A Q

Are you implying how we do title searches? I am talking about your investments. Yes. I do that personal research.

No.

I apologize.

And what I was trying to make the connection with was, you

know how to go that extra distance because you know how

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Lambros Gianos - Cross important it is to dig a little deeper? A Q Absolutely. Okay. And you have done that with your own personal

investments? A Q A Q Every last one of them. With the exception of this one.

And in this one, you spoke to people, right? I relied on the credibility of a friend. I appreciate that. In your business, title searching, you

don't rely on just the credibility of a friend, right? A Q No. It's not my money. It's somebody else's. And you have also done that

You go that other distance.

with your other investments as well? A Q Absolutely. When you were talking to Gary Herbert or reading the letter,

did you do any further investigation about Gary Herbert? A Q No. Did you look up any of the names of the folks that were

involved here? A Q A Such as Norm Schmidt's? Or anybody. Yes. I did some research on Norm Schmidt and the Redstone

Castle. Q So you found out that he was one of the owners of the

Redstone Castle? A Correct.

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Q A Q

Lambros Gianos - Cross And so that was verified? Yes. Did you have the opportunity to do anything like a Google or

something like that on any of the names of the people? A Q A Q I don't recall Googling any of the names. Do you do that now? No, not really. Did you ask anybody at the time that you met them at any of Did you ever say anything

those meetings, do you have a résumé? like that? A Q A Q A Q No.

Curricula vitae, anything like that? No. I want to draw your attention to Exhibit 421. I have that open. I want to publish that. I am sorry. May we go to 422. As

you go through the pages on 422, I believe it's around seven or eight pages, that entire document. little sleeve? A Q Would you like me to remove it? Yes, please. And you can also look at the screen if you Do you have that out of the

want. A Q A I could do this better if I could be allowed this. I am sure you can. Thank you.

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Q

Lambros Gianos - Cross The writing on the first page, that's your handwriting,

right? A Q That is correct. Okay. On the second page, that's the initials at the bottom

is your handwriting, right? A Q That is correct. How about up at the top that says five percent. Do you know

who wrote that? A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q I believe that was me as well. Okay. The next page, who filled the top part out? My handwriting.

That was mine.

And down at the bottom, that's your initial? That is correct. Page 4, those -- that's all your handwriting? Yes. With the instruction of Chuck Lewis, yes.

Page 5. That is my initial at the bottom, yes. Page 6. My initials. And page 7? My signature, my writing of my name, and the date. Okay. Now, when you did that, did you do that in your

office or did you do that in somebody else's office? A Q I believe I did it at home. Okay. So it's a fair statement to say that the bottom part

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Lambros Gianos - Cross for Capital Holdings, that wasn't filled out when you had the application? A Q A Q Correct. At some point later on you got that document back? That is correct. The copy.

When you saw the document with the signature, are you able

to determine whose writing that is on the right side with the date and the time? A On the right side, sir? Or underneath my signature, you

mean? Q Well, it's underneath your signature, but I don't want to go

to the signature and the hand printed name, but to the right of that. title? A Q Yes, I see that. And does that appear to be a little bit different ink or Do you see that where it says, date, and then it says,

type or whatever you want to call it from the signature and the name itself? A Q It does appear that way. And as you look at the signature, can you tell whether that

is something that somebody actually sat down and wrote out or was that a signature? A Q I am sorry? Could you even tell if that was a signature that someone

filled out or whether it was a stamped signature?

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A Q

Lambros Gianos - Cross I could not even tell you from this copy. Thank you. When you heard about Mr. Moss, what did you hear

about Mr. Moss? A Again, just the way I said earlier. Just a -- he was the

high-end person who allowed to make this all be possible. Q A Q A Q A Q You never met him, right? No. Did you feel the urge at any time to check him out? I would have liked to. Did you? No. You said that at some point, I believe it was January of

2003, you had already gotten back a disbursement of $2,000, right? A Q One of the disbursements, yes. And then the other disbursement was $3,000. And then in

order to test for yourself whether this would work, you asked for $50,000 back? A Q That is correct. So do I understand that at that time, as of January of 2003,

you had received a total of $55,000 back? A Q A Q That is correct. Okay. Did you ever got anything else back? As far as monetary you mean, sir?

Not that I recall. Yes.

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A Q A Q

Lambros Gianos - Cross I do not recall that, no. You talked about a gentleman named Dan Diamond. My brother-in-law. And why did you bring him along? I am assuming that you Who is he?

brought him along. A I did. I just invited him to come along with just to hear I thought it was interesting.

this out. Q

Did you feel he would provide you any assistance in being

another pair of ears? A Lending another pair of ears was very interesting, and

possibly down the line if he wanted to invest in this. Q Without saying anything that he said, did you have any

reason after you spoke to Mr. Diamond to doubt anything that was going on in the program? A Not at that time, no. MR. HAMMOND: Thank you. THE COURT: You are welcome. Redirect examination by I have no further questions, your Honor.

the government, Mr. Angelo. MR. ANGELO: THE COURT: Thank you, your Honor. You are welcome. REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. ANGELO: Q Mr. Gianos, you have referred to the $50,000 disbursement

that you requested?

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Lambros Gianos - Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q Yes. Did you reinvest that $50,000 in the same program after you

had received the disbursement? A Q A I did not. And your purpose in