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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO Criminal Action No. 04-cr-103-REB UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Plaintiff,

NORMAN SCHMIDT, GEORGE ALAN WEED, CHARLES LEWIS, MICHAEL D. SMITH, Defendants. _______________________________________________________________ REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT TRIAL TO JURY - VOLUME XII _______________________________________________________________ Proceedings before the HONORABLE ROBERT E. BLACKBURN, Judge, United States District Court for the District of Colorado, commencing at 8:30 a.m., on the 18th day of April, 2007, in Courtroom A701, Alfred A. Arraj United States Courthouse, 901 19th Street, Denver, Colorado. APPEARANCES WYATT B. ANGELO, MATTHEW KIRSCH, Assistant United States Attorneys, 1225 Seventeenth Street, #700, Denver, Colorado, appearing for the Government. Suzanne M. Claar, Official Reporter 901 19th St. Denver, Colorado, 80294-3589 (303)825-8874 PROCEEDINGS REPORTED BY MECHANICAL STENOGRAPHY TRANSCRIPTION PRODUCED BY COMPUTER

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APPEARANCES (Continued) PETER R. BORNSTEIN, 1600 Broadway, #2350, Denver, Colorado, THOMAS J. HAMMOND, 1544 Race Street, Denver, Colorado, appearing with Defendant Schmidt. THOMAS E. GOODREID, 1801 Broadway, #1100, Denver, Colorado, appearing with Defendant Weed. RONALD GAINOR, 6414 Fairways Drive, Longmont, Colorado, appearing with Defendant Lewis. DECLAN J. O'DONNELL, 777 Fifth Street, Castle Rock, Colorado, RICHARD N. STUCKEY, 2150 West 29th Avenue, #500, Denver, Colorado, appearing with Defendant Smith.

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P R O C E E D I N G S (Proceedings resumed at 8:30 a.m.) THE COURT: Thank you, and please be seated. To the

parties, their counsel, ladies and gentlemen generally, good morning. This morning at approximately 8:00 a.m. I received a telephone call from our third alternate juror, No. 15, Ms. Sherrie Jackson, who reported that her daughter is hospitalized again with another severe asthma attack. She does

not know when her daughter can be discharged and released from the hospital. As you know, this is the second such asthma attack in a little over a week. Last Tuesday, April 10th, we were

constrained to conclude that day of trial prematurely at approximately 3:30 p.m. to accommodate Ms. Jackson's care of her daughter. Ms. Jackson will not be available for service today. It is unknown and problematic if and when she may return and resume her duties in this trial. It appears probable to me, at least, that periodically her daughter will suffer such asthma attacks, which in turn will require Ms. Jackson's time and attention, possibly away from her duties and this trial. Now, we have already lost more than a full day of trial to jurors' personal issues and needs, and I state the obvious

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when I note that we can ill afford any further disruptions or delays with their concomitant inefficiencies and adverse effects on jurors, witnesses, and the orderly presentation of the trial in this case. And it would be my proposal that alternate juror No. 3, Juror No. 15, Ms. Sherrie Jackson, now be discharged from further service in this case for her inability to consistently attend and perform her duties as a juror in this trial. Before you respond to the court's proposal, I give you this opportunity, albeit briefly, to confer and caucus among and between yourselves. Response or record by the parties commencing with the government. MR. ANGELO: Honor. THE COURT: Mr. Gainor. MR. GAINOR: Your Honor, um, we have all conferred. I Transitioning to the defendants. The government has no objection, your

believe we are of the position that we should still give this juror a chance. perhaps eleven. We are not quite through ten days of trial, Our eleventh day.

We think that in terms of the issue that this juror has, that we should at least give some time, whether it's a half a day to determine what's going on, we think that at least the juror can potentially be questioned as to alternative

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arrangements if it goes beyond a day. this juror go at this point. THE COURT:

But we would hate to see

So we would object.

Mr. Stuckey. We would like to just add, your Honor,

MR. STUCKEY:

that a short delay of even a few hours this morning would assist us greatly in that I have a logistics problem. THE COURT: Mr. Stuckey, that is totally unrelated and

therefore irrelevant to the problems being suffered by Ms. Jackson and the viability of her service in this case. will take that matter up later. I

But I am not going to commingle

and thus mix the immiscible during this very focused query. MR. STUCKEY: THE COURT: I didn't mean personal. If you have

No, I understand that.

something to say about Ms. Jackson's continuing viability as an alternate juror during the trial of this case, I will hear you. MR. STUCKEY: THE COURT: No.

If you are trying to divert my attention in

some other directions, that's out of order. MR. STUCKEY: THE COURT: Understood.

For the reasons stated by the court, which

are now approved, adopted, and incorporated as its findings and conclusions, I find that Juror 15, alternate juror No. 3, Sherrie Jackson, is no longer to dependably and consistently perform her duties as a juror within the meaning of Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure 24(c)(1), as codified and construed,

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and should and must be discharged. Therefore, it is ordered that Juror No. 15, alternate juror No. 3, Ms. Sherrie Jackson, is discharged and excused from further duty and service in this case forthwith. That the Clerk

of the Court, as soon as practicable, shall communicate the court's order to Ms. Jackson. Done in open court effective forthwith. Madam clerk, I

am advised that all other regular and alternate jurors are present and presumably prepared to proceed. Therefore, please show them into the courtroom and jury box, please. THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: THE COURT: Yes, your Honor.

And thank you.

(Jury in at 8:40 a.m.) THE COURT: All rise for the jury. I have bid all others a good

Please be seated. morning.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, good morning. THE JURY: THE COURT: Good morning. While you have been waiting, we have been

working.

As a result of important business transacted outside

your presence and hearing, I have found it necessary to excuse and discharge from further duty and service in this case Juror No. 15, Ms. Sherrie Jackson. She called this morning to report that her daughter is again hospitalized with a severe asthma attack. It's

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problematic about if and when she may return and resume her duties as a juror in this case. We have already, of course, sustained substantial delays, and cannot tolerate such further delays. So she has our

thoughts and our prayers for her, her daughter, and her family. But away we go now as constituted. Please be advised.

If the government is prepared to proceed, it may call its next witness. MR. KIRSCH: Balfe. THE COURT: Thank you. Good morning, ma'am, if you Your Honor, the government calls Nancy

will come and stand in this open area in front of my bench, approximately there, I am going to administer the oath. If you will face me and raise your right hand to be sworn. And thank you. May I have your attention in the courtroom. (Nancy Balfe was sworn.) THE WITNESS: THE COURT: witness stand. I do. Please be seated in that

Thank you.

Ma'am, again good morning. Hi.

THE WITNESS: THE COURT: in front of you.

As you testify, please use the microphone

And by its peculiar design, it seems to work

best if you will leave a speaking distance of six to eight inches, please.

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THE WITNESS: THE COURT:

Okay.

Thank you. DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. KIRSCH: Q Could you please state your name and spell your last name

for us? A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Nancy Balfe, B-A-L, F as in frank, E. Where do you live, Ms. Balfe? 4025 43rd Avenue South, Minneapolis, Minnesota. Do you work in Minneapolis as well? Yes, I do. Where do you work? Marsh USA. What's Marsh USA? Marsh is an insurance broker. What's your position with Marsh? I am a senior client rep. What sort of things does a senior client rep do? We do the day-to-day functioning of our clients that we I am in the casualty department, and I have clients where I check I deal

have.

I prepare their submissions for the insurance market. their policies. I handle their day-to-day questions.

with any problems with certificates or I.D. cards. Q Do you have a particular group of clients for which you have

responsibility?

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Nancy Balfe - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q A Yes, I do. Is Wells Fargo Bank one of those clients? At the time back in 2002, they were a client. They are no

longer a client of mine in casualty now. Q A Q During 2002 did you hold the same position? Yes, I did. And at that time Wells Fargo Bank was one of the clients for

which you had responsibility? A Q Yes. Did you work with a person during that time period named Jan

Oxendale? A Q A Yes, I did. What was Ms. Oxendale's relationship to you within Marsh? Jan was the insurance assistant, and the insurance

assistant's duties were to issue insurance certificates and auto I.D. cards at the request of our clients. Q At some point did you become aware that Ms. Oxendale had

dealings with a person by the name of Alan Weed? A Q A Yes, I did. How did you learn about that? She came to me after having several telephone calls with him And he

because he wanted us to issue some certificates for him. was giving her a very hard time.

And she asked me if I would

handle it, which that would be part of my duties to do. Q Did you then assume responsibility for that inquiry?

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Nancy Balfe - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 304. THE COURT: defendants? Any objection by any one or more of the A Q Yes, I did. During the course of taking that over, did you receive a

copy of a letter that had been sent to Ms. Oxendale? A I believe it was a three-page fax, if my memory serves

correctly. Q Can I ask you, please, to take a look at what's marked for It should come up

identification as Government's Exhibit 304.

on the screen -- actually, let me ask you to look at it in the notebook that's going to be handed to you in just a moment, please, because it does have more than one page. It's 304, ma'am. Can I ask you to remove that document

from the plastic sleeve once you found it so you can look at each of the pages. A Q A Q A Q A Yes. I remember seeing this.

And when did you see that document first? When Jan brought it to me. Did you subsequently have conversations with Mr. Weed? Yes, I did. About this letter? Yes, I did. About his request for having certificates

issued to these individuals. MR. KIRSCH: I would move to admit Government's Exhibit

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Nancy Balfe - Direct Hearing none, Government's Exhibit 304 for identification admitted in evidence, with leave to publish. MR. KIRSCH: THE COURT: MR. KIRSCH: Thank you, your Honor. You are welcome. If we could publish the first page of that

document and zoom in on the text, please. BY MR. KIRSCH: Q Ms. Balfe, the first -- what was your understanding about

the request that was being made in this letter? A Mr. Weed wanted us to issue certificates to each one of

these individuals, um, and we really couldn't at that point, and I explained to him we couldn't do that. Q And when you say each one of the individuals, is there a

list attached to this on the next two pages? A Q Yes, there is. And perhaps we can look at, say, page 2 of that document.

Was Mr. Weed requesting certificates for the people listed here on this list? A Q Yes. And is there another page with a similar list of names and

addresses? A Q Yes, there is. And if we could go back to page 1 of the document now, In the text there is also a reference to samples in the

please.

second paragraph, samples for $50 million, and then a reference

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Nancy Balfe - Direct to $200 million in the first paragraph. little more context about that, please? A

Can you give us a

If my memory serves me correctly, Mr. Weed had originally

asked for a certificate for a firm that he was representing, and the insurance assistant at the time told him that he had to get that approved by Wells Fargo because -MR. HAMMOND: Your Honor, I will have to object to what

the other insurance agent told him because that would be hearsay. THE COURT: BY MR. KIRSCH: Q Ms. Balfe, are you able to -- do you know about certificates I agree, and the objection is sustained.

that were initially issued at Mr. Weed's request? A Q Yes. And what amount of insurance was reflected in those

certificates? A Q The first request that he asked for was for 50 million. And did you have an understanding that this letter

constituted a request for certificates to be issued at a greater -- listing a greater amount of coverage? A That's correct. He wanted another certificate to be issued

with increased limits to the 200 million. Q A Q Did you discuss -- how did you speak to Mr. Weed? I spoke to him over the phone. Did you discuss with Mr. Weed his request that certificates

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Nancy Balfe - Direct be issued for each of the people named on the attached lists here? A Q A Yes, I did. What did you tell him about that? That we were not going to issue the certificates as per his

request. Q A Q A Did you explain why? Yes, I did. What did you tell him? I explained to him that the request for the certificates

that he had asked for for Capital Holdings we issued. Unfortunately, the certificates requested for these individuals were clients of Capital Holdings, and to our knowledge, there was no contractual agreement between Wells Fargo and Capital Holdings to have these certificates issued, which is why we had to decline. And we did explain to him that if we were missing something and there was an agreement, then we would have to get that approved by Wells Fargo, and if they approved it, then we would be happy to issue it for him. Q Did you memorialize your conversation with Mr. Weed in the

form of an e-mail to him? A Q Yes, I did. Let me ask you to take a look now at what's marked as That one will be in a different

Government's Exhibit 5013.

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notebook. A Q A Q A Q A Q Yes.

Nancy Balfe - Direct Do you have that now?

Do you recognize that document? Yes, I do. And what is it? It's my e-mail to Mr. Weed. On this topic that we have been just discussing? Yes. Did you have any conversations with Mr. Weed subsequent to

your sending of this e-mail? A Yes. I explained it to him what we couldn't do for him, and

then I confirmed it in the e-mail. Q Okay. And my question is, after you sent the e-mail, did

you have any additional conversations? A Q Yes, I did. He called several times after that.

During those conversations, subsequent to your sending this

e-mail, did Mr. Weed give you any indication that he had received this e-mail? A I believe so. Because he wanted to get certificates issued. I would move to admit Government's Exhibit

MR. KIRSCH: 5013. THE COURT: defendants?

Any objection by any one or more of the

Hearing none, Government's Exhibit 5013 for identification admitted in evidence, with leave to publish.

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Nancy Balfe - Direct MR. KIRSCH: Thank you, your Honor. that, please. THE COURT: BY MR. KIRSCH: Q You are welcome.

I would ask to do

Ms. Balfe, are we looking at the first two paragraphs of the

text of your e-mail there? A Q Yes. In the first paragraph is there an indication that Marsh had

in fact received authorization to issue certificates at that higher amount that you discussed earlier? A For the 200 million, yes. And it was issued to Capital

Holdings, LLC. Q All right. The second paragraph, does that contain the

beginning of your discussion to Mr. Weed about the request concerning individual insurance certificates? A Q Yes, it does. And if we could look at the final paragraph there now as Does this paragraph refer to your discussion about

well.

contacting Wells Fargo for that purpose? A Q Yes, it does. Now, I believe that you testified a moment ago that you had

additional telephone conversations with Mr. Weed after you sent this e-mail? A Q That's correct. And did Mr. Weed indicate any frustration to you after -- in

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Nancy Balfe - Direct those conversations? A Q A Q Yes, he did. Do you recall what he said to you? I don't want to talk to you because I won't get what I want. Did you have a conversation with Mr. Weed about the fact

that Marsh constitutes a broker as opposed to an insurer itself? A That's correct. He indicated to me that Marsh was an

insurance company, and when I corrected him that we are a broker, we are a liaison between our client and the insurance company, he said, you are just too technical for me. Q Did you have any additional conversation with him about the

issuance of certificate -- insurance certificates from Capital Holdings to individual investors as opposed to from Marsh? A I, um, think I understand what you are saying. He -- yes,

he wanted to have more certificates issued.

And he went to

other people in the company, tried to get it issued, and I had to put in a notice to our individual manager who handles the insurance assistants and ask her to ask the group not to issue anything for Mr. Weed. That any conversations, any telephone

calls, any e-mails should be directed to me, and that I would confirm it with Wells Fargo. Q And did you have any additional discussions with Mr. Weed

about whether another entity besides Marsh might issue the types of certificates he was seeking? A No. I don't think so.

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Nancy Balfe - Direct MR. KIRSCH: Okay. Those are all the questions I have for Ms. Balfe, your Honor. THE COURT: Mr. Stuckey. MR. STUCKEY: THE COURT: Thank you, your Honor. Thank you.

Cross-examination on behalf of Mr. Smith by

You are welcome. CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. STUCKEY: Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Good morning, ma'am. Good morning. I would just like to ask you, who is Timothy J. Wicker? He is a managing director at our office in Minneapolis. He is in Minneapolis where you are? Yes. Would he be your superior? No. Managing director? He is a managing director, but he is not over the casualty He is over the financial group.

group. Q

Do you recall these certificates having indications of

reinsurance or insurance from one Superior Guaranty Insurance Company of Vermont? A I received a call sometime in September from an individual

who said he received a certificate from Mr. Weed, and he said, it doesn't look right. And I said, would you fax it to me, and

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Nancy Balfe - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. GAINOR: Q Ms. Balfe, good morning. he did. And when I got the certificate, it looked like it had been altered. And I then sent it to Wells Fargo, and they, I

believe, sent it to their attorneys. Q A And that had to do what with Superior Guaranty? It did, which I believe is their captive. Wells Fargo's

captive. Q A Q Superior Guaranty Insurance Company of Vermont? Yes. That's what you thought was altered, that name was placed on

there for something else? A I can't remember what was altered on that certificate. I

don't have it in front of me right now.

But when you deal with

as many certificates as we do, you can tell when something has been altered or it looks funny, and it looked funny. So that's

why we passed it on to Wells Fargo, and they passed it on to their legal department. MR. STUCKEY: THE COURT: Mr. Gainor. MR. GAINOR: THE COURT: Thank you, your Honor. You are welcome. CROSS-EXAMINATION Okay. Thank you.

Cross-examination on behalf of Mr. Lewis by

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A Q

Nancy Balfe - Cross Good morning. If I understand your testimony correctly, there were

conversations going back and forth whether in letter form or e-mail form with regard to the issuance of certificates to individual investors connected with Capital Holdings? A Q That's correct. And you had an opportunity to review at length, and it's not

necessary to put it up, Exhibit 304, which is the e-mail or the correspondence to Ms. Oxendale? A Q A Q A Q Correct. That had attachments of individual investors following it? Correct. Okay. And then from there you got involved after?

Yes, I did. All right. You never personally contacted any of the

individual investors listed in that exhibit? A No, sir. MR. GAINOR: THE COURT: Mr. Goodreid. MR. GOODREID: THE COURT: Yes. Thank you, your Honor. Thank you. Cross-examination on behalf of Mr. Weed by

You are welcome. CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. GOODREID: Q Good morning, Ms. Balfe.

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A Q

Nancy Balfe - Cross Good morning. Could you take a look at Exhibit 304 again, please. And if

we could bring that up where everyone can see it. that in front of you, ma'am? A Q Yes. Okay.

Do you have

And I take it this is the letter that Ms. Oxendale

received and then passed on to you? A Q A Q Yes. And that document is not dated, is it? No. It was a fax document.

I understand it's a fax document, but I am just making the

point that this document is not dated on its face, is it? A Q A No. Do you know approximately when Ms. Oxendale received this? It had to have been before the 12th of September when I sent

my e-mail to Mr. Weed. Q A Q So would this come in, say, a day or two before that? Yes. Could you explain -- I am not sure I understood this about Could you

this letter mentioned $50 million and $200 million. explain that discrepancy again? A It's not a discrepancy.

Sometimes with contracts, when a

contract between two individuals, they will ask for a minimum limit. In the beginning I believe they asked for 50 million,

and then Mr. Weed came back and said, we need one to show the

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Nancy Balfe - Cross two million limit. Wells Fargo has very high limits. Q A You said two million. I am sorry. Did you mean 200 million? Wells Fargo has very high limits

200 million.

of insurance, and this is just part of what they have. Q So a certificate that reflected $200 million coverage would

have been accurate? A Q Yes. Okay. Now, you also said that when you talked to Mr. Weed,

he said something about, you are too technical for me when you were telling him Marsh was an insurance broker? A Q Yes. Who in this particular case was the actual insurance client

of yours? A Q Wells Fargo. But was Marsh itself supplying the insurance, or was there

some other entity behind Marsh that was actually supplying the insurance? A There is an insurance company that would be supplying the

insurance for Wells Fargo. Q A And who was that company in this case? I believe it was through their captive, but I can't

remember. Q A Q And their captive as best you can recall is Guaranty? Um-hm. Let me ask you one other question about 304. If you look

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Nancy Balfe - Cross at -- again, if we can pull that second paragraph up just one sentence so we can see that a little better. And do you see, Ms. Balfe, it says, as you can see as we discussed the samples attached for your guidance? A Q A Q Yes. Do you see that language? Yes. There are not any samples attached to this particular This exhibit?

document, are there? A Q A Q A Q No, there wasn't.

Now, you say no there wasn't? There wasn't. There wasn't originally or there is not now? There is not now. And to the best of your recollection, were there samples

attached to this when the original was received by your office? A Q I honestly can't remember. You don't think that's something that would have caught your

attention given it's referenced here in the letter? A The whole thing caught my attention because of the

individuals. Q Well, I understand that. What I am asking specifically,

ma'am, is about the sample -- the letter says the sample is attached for your guidance. Do you even think now that there

were in fact samples attached when this was originally received?

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A

Nancy Balfe - Cross I am sure there could have been but I honestly don't

remember. MR. GOODREID: THE COURT: Mr. Hammond. MR. HAMMOND: THE COURT: No questions, your Honor. That's all I have, your Honor.

Cross-examination for Mr. Schmidt by

Redirect examination of this witness by the

government, Mr. Kirsch. MR. KIRSCH: you. THE COURT: May Ms. Balfe be excused and released from No further questions, your Honor. Thank

subpoena, if any, by the government? MR. KIRSCH: THE COURT: Yes, your Honor. Any objection by the defendants?

Hearing none, Ms. Balfe, you are excused and released from subpoena with our thanks. THE WITNESS: THE COURT: Thank you.

You are welcome.

(The witness was excused.) THE COURT: next witness. MR. KIRSCH: calls Timothy Wicker. THE COURT: Thank you. If you will come forward to be Thank you, your Honor. The government Very well. The government may call its

Good morning, sir.

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Nancy Balfe - Cross sworn by the court. If you will come forward to this open area, approximately there. I am going to administer the oath. and raise your right hand to be sworn. If you will face me

And thank you.

May I have your attention in the courtroom. (Timothy Wicker was sworn.) THE WITNESS: THE COURT: witness stand. I do. Please be seated in that As you testify,

Thank you.

And again good morning, sir.

please use the microphone in front of you.

And by its peculiar

design, it works best if you will leave a six to eight-inch speaking distance. Thank you. Okay.

THE WITNESS: THE COURT: MR. KIRSCH: THE COURT:

Mr. Kirsch. Thank you, your Honor. You are welcome. DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. KIRSCH: Q A Q A Q A Q Sir, could you please state your full name? Timothy John Wicker. Where do you live, Mr. Wicker? Minneapolis, Minnesota. Do you work there? I do. What do you do for a living?

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A Q A Q A Q A Q

Timothy Wicker - Direct I am a commercial insurance broker. Are you associated with a particular company? Yes. I am a managing director with Marsh USA, Inc.

Were you employed with Marsh in the year 2002? Yes, I was. What was your position then? I was a senior vice president and a client executive. And did part of your duties in 2002 include duties with

respect to accounts for Wells Fargo Bank? A Yes. I was a client executive at Marsh USA, Inc. I was

responsible, and am still responsible today, for the services and consulting provided by my company to Wells Fargo. Q Does Marsh actually sell insurance itself? In other words,

an insurance product that it offers to Wells Fargo? A Marsh is a brokerage firm, and we consult with our clients

on their insurance and risk management needs, and if the client wants to purchase insurance, we bargain on their behalf with insurance companies and negotiate terms and pricing of insurance. Q Are you familiar with the insurance company from which Wells

Fargo purchased its insurance in 2002? A Yes. There were quite a number. I think with respect to

matters here, the Superior Guaranty Insurance Company of Vermont is the company. Q Okay. Does that company have some additional relationship

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Timothy Wicker - Direct to Wells Fargo of which you are aware? A Yes. Superior Guaranty is an insurance company domiciled in It's a subsidiary

Vermont that is wholly owned by Wells Fargo.

that is used to issue policies to Wells Fargo and its subsidiaries, and it in turn transfers a part of that risk through reinsurance through other insurance carriers. Q Are you familiar, based on your duties with Marsh, with

insurance certificates issued by Marsh? A Q Yes, I am. And, um, for -- how are those insurance certificates Do you know the purpose

typically -- let me ask it this way.

for which those certificates are used by Marsh's clients? A Our clients purchase various types of insurance. And for

some types of insurance, third parties request information or confirmation that that insurance exists. Most often, when a company leases a premises, the landlord will ask for a certificate of insurance to assure themselves if there is liability insurance in case someone slips and falls on the premises, or a business may be asked to certificate the existence of automobile insurance or workers comp insurance. Sometimes, in addition to that, other lines of insurance such as financial institution bond or professional liability may be certificated and -Q Okay. That's fine.

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A

Timothy Wicker - Direct The process by which that request comes forward to us is

that a business unit of Wells Fargo will identify that they have a need to have a certificate of insurance issued by us as a third-party certificator, if you will, a third party to demonstrate that insurance actually is in place. So we have a system whereby the Wells Fargo insurance representative within the business unit will make a request, and that request will go by an automated system to our office. If it is a non-standard, if it's an unusual request, the risk management department at Wells Fargo must give us approval before we issue the certificate. Once that approval is in place, then our automated systems will generate a certificate of insurance, which is then mailed or faxed, depending on what the need is. Q Are you aware of Marsh having issued certificates sometime

in 2002 to entities known as Capital Holdings and Monarch Capital Holdings? A Yes, I am. We issued certificates at two times, you know,

late July, early August, and then at the end of September of 2002. Q And do you know the reason for the second issuance? Was

there something different about the two? A Yes. The second set of certificates was generated by a new Monarch Capital Holdings was the occasion -- the first

entity.

set of certificates were issued for Capital Holdings, I believe.

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Timothy Wicker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q All right. The second set for Monarch Capital Holdings. I am going to ask you, please, to take a look at what's

marked for identification purposes as Government's Exhibit 300. A Q A Q A Yes. Do you recognize those certificates? Yes, I do. How do you recognize those certificates? Um, these are copies of certificates that we provided, and I

had our staff print me out copies of all certificates of insurance that we had issued relating to this matter, and these are photocopies of those. Q And the certificate or -- excuse me -- the signature, or at Do

least electronic signature in the bottom right-hand corner. you recognize those? A Yes. That's my signature. MR. KIRSCH: Your Honor, I would move to admit

Government's Exhibit 300. THE COURT: defendants? Hearing none, Government's Exhibit 300 for identification admitted in evidence, with leave to publish. MR. KIRSCH: that, please. BY MR. KIRSCH: Thank you, your Honor. I would ask to do Any objection by any one or more of the

Starting with page 1.

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Q

Timothy Wicker - Direct Mr. Wicker, we are going to look first at the sort of top I am going to put it on the screen

third of this certificate.

there in front of you, and hopefully it will be large enough to read. A Q Are you able to see that on the screen? It's a little easier to read on the paper. If that's easier, I am going to ask you questions

Yes. Okay.

about what's on the screen. A Q Very good. Starting with the company's affording coverage, company A,

is that the captive company that you identified previously? A Q Yes, it is. And then the company listed as company B, the reinsurance by

Lloyd's of London, would that be the -- that reflect the -A That reflected the arrangement in place between Superior

Guaranty and underwriters of Lloyd's transferring parts of the risk to them. Q All right. Can you explain the two sentences that appear Perhaps we

immediately before the companies affording coverage? can blow that up further. issued. A Yes.

It begins, this certificate is

It says, this certificate is issued as a matter of

information only, and confers no right upon the certificate holder, other than those provided in the policy. This

certificate does not amend, extend, or alter the coverage afforded by the policies described herein.

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Timothy Wicker - Direct Um, this hopefully makes it clear that the certificate is basically a snapshot of the insurance that's in place as of the date the certificate is issued, and doesn't give any certificate holder who might have requested it, any special rights under the policy by itself. If the policy said that

certain parties had rights under the policy, that would govern. Receiving the certificate does nothing. Q So in this case if we look down at the bottom of this

certificate in the lower left, the certificate holder is identified? A Yes, it is. That's usually the party who has requested the

client to have a certificate of insurance issued to them. Q Now, based on what you were just explaining, does that

person have any rights based on receiving this certificate? A Q No. What about a third party who had a copy of this certificate

but was not identified there as a certificate holder, would that kind of a third party have any -- would this certificate create any rights for that person? A Q No, it would not. If we could look up a little bit higher on this document There at the A and B where it says, Financial

now, please.

Institutions Bond? A Q Yes. Are you familiar with what that coverage includes,

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Timothy Wicker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Mr. Wicker? A Q A Yes, I am. What does that cover? Financial Institution Bond is a -- is a type of special

policy purchased by banks and other financial institutions to cover their risks associated with crime insurance. Specifically employees stealing from the bank or the stockbroker loss of assets that are on the premises. You know,

money or securities, valuable papers on the premises or in transit, losses through forgery, and a very long list of other exposures to crime. And this is a type of policy that is actually required by regulators to be carried by financial institutions. So the

specific forms will vary widely, but the purposes is all the same basically. It's a prudent step for financial institution to buy insurance to protect itself against particular risks, and in this case, the controller of currency in the Federal Reserve Bank and other regulators expect banks to be prudent and purchase insurance like this. Q Now, when you are talking about it protecting the bank from

crimes, are you talking about crimes committed by employees of the bank, or are you talking about crimes committed by third parties? A It will cover both.

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Q

Okay.

Timothy Wicker - Direct What about if we could look at page 2 of that -- this I am

exhibit, focusing on the same section of that certificate. sorry. policy. On the lower portion there describing the type of Can we go up across, please. This certificate refers to professional liability. you familiar with the coverage provided by that policy? A Q A Yes, I am. And what does it cover?

Are

Well, it's covering claims brought against the bank alleging

an error or omission on the part of the bank in handling one of their client's business transactions. So Errors and Omissions insurance, professional liability insurance, this is a very broad policy intended to cover their liability for their professional acts and services provided by their customers. Q All right. And over on the right side here there is a

reflection of a $50 million amount? A Q Yes. If you look at the next two pages of that exhibit, the

amount appears to change to $200 million. A Q A Q A Yes. Do you recall how it was that that happened, or do you know? I know. Okay. From viewing our files and notes. There was a request to

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Timothy Wicker - Direct have larger limits certificated to Capital Holdings.

And so

although we had provided an insurance certificate on each of these policies for $50 million, the request was amended and came to us from Wells Fargo to issue limits at $200 million. Q A Q And you did that? I believe so. One more question about this exhibit. On the top right-hand

corner of the first page, for instance, there is a certificate number? A Q Yes. What's the significance of the certificate number, and what

does that denote? A I am not certain because I don't know all the details of our

certificate-issuing software. Q A Okay. But basically the client would have us -- this would be more

a master number for certificates issued on the financial institution bond or the professional liability insurance. You

will see there are different certificate numbers on the two types of policies. Q All right. Can I ask you to look now, please, at what's Again,

marked for identification as Government's Exhibit 301.

there are a few pages there, Mr. Wicker, so I will ask you to remove them from the sleeve so you can look at each one of them. A Yes.

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Q A Q A

Timothy Wicker - Direct Do you recognize those? Yes, I do. What are they? These are certificates of insurance that we issued with

Monarch Capital Holdings, LLC, as the certificate holder. Q All right. Do these reflect any different underlying

insurance policies than those that were reflected in Government's Exhibit 300? A No, they don't. MR. KIRSCH: THE COURT: defendants? Hearing none, Government's Exhibit 301 for identification admitted in evidence, with leave to publish. MR. KIRSCH: THE COURT: BY MR. KIRSCH: Q In the lower left portion of this document, Mr. Wicker, this Thank you, your Honor. You are welcome. I move to admit Government's Exhibit 301. Any objection by any one or more of the

is where the indication is that the certificate holder is Monarch Capital Holdings as opposed to Capital Holdings? A Q Yes. Do these certificates that were issued from Monarch Capital

Holdings, do they differ from those issued to Capital Holdings in any -- in the sense of any rights or lack of rights that they would convey to the certificate holders?

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A

Timothy Wicker - Direct No, not at all. They are issued on the same standard form

with the same caveats, with the same notice to the certificate holders. Q And is that also true -- same, do these certificates to

Monarch, were they conveying any rights to any third parties who might receive copies of them? A Q No, they would not. Now, at some point in 2002 or 2003, did you learn about any

usage of these certificates which gave you concern on behalf of Marsh? A Q Yes. In February 2003, I believe.

And how -- what was the source of the information that you

received? A In February 2003, I began receiving telephone calls from

people who had copies of my certificates, and in some cases other documents. named George -MR. GOODREID: Objection to the extent that this answer So I believe in February 2003 a gentleman

is going into the extent of what any of these people told him. MR. KIRSCH: I don't want you to go into anything that

any of these people that you spoke to told you, Mr. Wicker, okay? THE WITNESS: No. I received certain documents by fax

from a gentleman named George Manter, and reviewed those documents and became concerned.

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Timothy Wicker - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. KIRSCH: Q Let me ask you to take a look, please, at what's marked for

identification as Government's Exhibit 302. A Q A Q A Q A Q Yes. Do you have that document? I do. And do you recognize that document? Yes, I do. And how do you recognize that document? This is a document I determined had been altered. Is this -- how did you first come into possession of this

document? A I believe this is the certificate that I received in I kind of

February 2003 with -- could you repeat the question? lost my train of thought. Q Yeah.

The question was, how did you first come into

possession of this certificate? A Q It was faxed to me. Was it faxed to you by one of the people whom you described

receiving telephone calls from? A Q Yes. And you, after receiving this, did you take steps to verify

the authenticity of this document? A Q Yes, I did. What did you do?

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A

Timothy Wicker - Direct I first had my staff research our records.

I compared the

certificate with all the certificates that we had issued and had on file. And compared it with the certificates we had issued.

And determined that we, first of all, had not issued it, and second, on its face it was not consistent with documents that we had issued, and had been altered. MR. KIRSCH: Exhibit 302. THE COURT: defendants? Hearing none, Government's Exhibit 302 for identification admitted in evidence, with leave to publish. MR. KIRSCH: THE COURT: MR. KIRSCH: BY MR. KIRSCH: Q Um, Mr. Wicker, I believe you indicated that on its face Thank you, your Honor. You are welcome. We would ask to do that, please. Any objection by any one or more of the Your Honor, I move to admit Government's

there were inconsistencies on this document? A Q Yes, there were. Can you point out where that would be on this document so

that we might be able to enlarge it? A Q A Yes. Yes. I determined we had not issued any certificate to Smitty's, And then further, in comparing the fonts of the The lower left-hand corner, the certificate holder.

LLC.

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Timothy Wicker - Direct certificate holder as printed here, it did not match the fonts of the certificates that we had issued, specifically in that the TH in 12th Avenue is in small type and raised, whereas if you look at the way 12th Avenue appears in the genuine certificates, it is not a smaller font and is not raised. Q Did you make any comparison of the certificate number on

these certificates to any that Marsh had issued? A Yes. I compared the documents to all the certificates that

had genuinely been issued, and did determine that this certificate was an alteration of another specific one that we had issued. Q Okay. I don't recall the other details.

The policy number that's reflected here on the screen

and the Financial Institutions Bond, is that the same policy number that was reflected in some of those other certificates? A Q Yes, it is. And if we could go to page 2 of this exhibit, in the lower Is the information in the certificate

left-hand corner again.

holder here the same as the certificate which we were just examining? A Q Yes, it is. The professional liability policy number reflected on the

screen, is that the same number that was reflected on any of the certificates that Marsh actually issued? A Q Yes, it is. Did you receive additional documents from the people with

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Timothy Wicker - Direct whom you spoke on the phone that gave you concerns about representations being made about insurance? A Q Yes. Let me ask you to take a look now, please, at what's marked

for identification as Government's Exhibit 303. A Q A Q A Q A Yes. Do you recognize those documents? I do. How do you recognize those? These were faxed to me. By whom? These were faxed to me by an investor. I think it was

George Manter. Q

And they accompanied certificates of insurance.

Did you review the representations that were made in these

documents with respect to insurance? A Q Yes. I did review them.

And did you believe, based on that review, that the

representations made in these documents were accurate? A Oh, not at all. MR. KIRSCH: THE COURT: defendants? I move to admit Government's Exhibit 303. Any objection by any one or more of the

Mr. Goodreid. Your Honor, may I have a brief voir

MR. GOODREID: dire, please? THE COURT:

You may.

Thank you.

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Timothy Wicker - Direct MR. GOODREID: May I do it from here? THE COURT: You may. Thank you.

EXAMINATION BY MR. GOODREID: Q Mr. Wicker, first of all, 303 is a two-page document that's

in front of you, right? A Q A Q A Q That's right. Was -- and you saw this document before, correct? Before what? Before today? Yes. And when you received it originally, or you first saw it,

rather, did it have all these black marks in it? A Yes, it did. MR. GOODREID: THE COURT: No objection, your Honor.

Hearing no other objections, Government's

Exhibit 303 for identification admitted in evidence, with leave to publish. MR. KIRSCH: THE COURT: MR. KIRSCH: Thank you, your Honor. You are welcome. I am going to ask to publish page 2 of

that document, first, please, your Honor. Can we zoom in on the text of that, please. BY MR. KIRSCH: Q Now, Mr. Wicker, is there -- are there any representations

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Timothy Wicker - Direct in this letter that you believe to be misleading with respect to the Marsh insurance certificates? A Q A I would say all of them. And in what sense? To me, it was entirely fictitious and misrepresented The

virtually everything about the insurance we issued. certificate we issued. Q

And can you be a little more specific about how this letter

misrepresents the certificates that Marsh was issuing? A Um, No. 1, it says that -- it describes what the Financial

Institution Bond is covering, and that is not a very accurate statement of what the Financial Institution Bond does. Q A All right. It refers to a non-depletion account. I have never heard of

any such thing.

And putting in theft or hackers is again a

fairly odd thing to add there. But to say that it covers intentional destruction of funds in a non-depletion account is not anything I would recognize in the normal course of my insurance business describing what the policy does. Q A All right. What about No. 2?

Um, I have described what the professional liability

insurance is, and if there was unintentional destruction of funds, unless of course it was money or securities or something like that, it would actually be covered by the Financial

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Timothy Wicker - Direct Institution Bond, not the professional liability policy. So to say that it's errors and omissions is correct. And then the last statement, these two policies cover your funds in the Wells Fargo Bank investments, LLC account, to me was not at all an accurate statement of what the certificates would represent. Q Let's look at the first page of this exhibit, now, please.

And if we can zoom in on the text of that. Did you have any concerns about any representations made in this document, Mr. Wicker? A Yes. I was concerned that this was a very misleading

document. Q A And in what sense was this document misleading? Well, in a number of ways. First, Mr. Alan Weed is stating

that he is an insurance administrator for Superior Guaranty Insurance Company of Vermont, which was not the case. Some party is purporting to have an interest in a master insurance certificate, which again is fiction. no master insurance certificate. There was

And no one would have any

right to assigned interest in it to anyone else. It really appeared very dubious to me for a lot of reasons. Q All right. I will ask you to take a look at one other It's marked for identification as Government's

exhibit, please. Exhibit 5026.

And I ask that you be provided with a different

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Timothy Wicker - Direct binder for the purpose of looking at that one. A Q A Q A Q A Okay. Do you have that one in front of you now? I do. Um, do you recognize that document? I do. And what is it? This -- this document was provided to me by your office. I

hadn't seen it prior to that time. Q Okay. Do you recognize in general the form of that

document? A Yes. I would say this was drawn to appear to be similar to

the certificates of insurance that we issue. Q Is this document in the format of a certificate that Marsh

would issue? A Q In general, yes. All right. Are there differences between this certificate

and one that Marsh itself would issue? A Yes. The additions of the accord documents shown at the

bottom don't match the addition of the accord documents that we used or had programmed into our computers. similar. Q A Q Is this document signed by a representative of Marsh? No, it's not. Would Marsh issue any insurance certificates in an unsigned But it is very

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Timothy Wicker - Direct format like that? A No, we would not. MR. KIRSCH: THE COURT: MR. KIRSCH: Can I have one moment, please, your Honor? Thank you. You may. Those are all my

Thank you, your Honor.

questions for Mr. Wicker. THE COURT: by Mr. Stuckey. MR. STUCKEY: THE COURT: Thank you, your Honor. Cross-examination on behalf of Mr. Smith,

You are welcome. CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. STUCKEY: Q Mr. Wicker, my name is Richard Stuckey. One of the defense One,

counsel in this case.

I want to ask you about two areas.

do you recall in about August of 2002 receiving a phone call from a gentleman from Spokane, Washington named Michael Smith inquiring about these same certificates that we have been talking about? A Q A Q A Q I do not. No recollection of that? In August of 2002? Well, July, June, July or August? No, I don't. Okay. Well, that takes care of the first area. The second

one -- or let me ask if it refreshes your recollection at all of

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Timothy Wicker - Cross receiving a call from a gentleman who said he was doing due diligence on Capital Holdings and wanted to know if this insurance was in place? A Q No, I don't. All right. I would like to ask you to look at defense Smith

Exhibit 28, which the clerk will show you in another binder there. And I would like to ask that -A Q A Q Pardon me? Which one. Government's Exhibit 303.

28, under the tab 28. I beg your pardon?

I was talking to our technician to put on the screen

Government's Exhibit 303, which is in evidence. Exhibit 28 for the defense in the white book that you are looking at consists of two pages, right? A Q Yes. That's not in evidence. But what I would like to ask you

is, if you take just a second and compare the language in paragraphs A and B of Exhibit 28 with the second page of Government's Exhibit 303, and those two representations made therein which you described as being faulty at least? A Q And what are you asking me to look at? Just to compare them briefly. And if you have done that, I

want to ask you, aren't the representations in A and B, although not word for word, very similar to the representations --

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Timothy Wicker - Cross MR. KIRSCH: Objection to the question.

That calls for

a comment on Exhibit 28, which is not in evidence. MR. GOODREID: THE COURT: BY MR. STUCKEY: Q I will just end with you have never seen Exhibit 28 -I join that objection, your Honor.

The objection is sustained.

defense Exhibit 28 in the book before, have you? A Q I have not. Okay. MR. STUCKEY: your Honor. That's all I have. Oh, one other thing,

I am sorry. Lastly with a footnote. Yes, sir.

THE COURT:

MR. STUCKEY: BY MR. STUCKEY: Q A Q A

Insurance companies get ratings from an agency, right? Many do. And that agency is called AM Best Rating Service is one? Insurance companies commonly get ratings from a variety of AM

rating agencies, Standard & Poor's, Moody's, Fitch, AM Best. Best is probably the best known of those, but yes. Q A Do you know the rating which Superior of Vermont had? No, I don't. MR. STUCKEY: THE COURT: All right. Thank you.

Cross-examination now on behalf of

Mr. Lewis by Mr. Gainor.

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Timothy Wicker - Cross MR. GAINOR: Thank you, your Honor.

May it please the

THE COURT:

You are welcome.

And thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GAINOR: Q A Q A Q A Mr. Wicker, how long have you been working at Marsh for? At Marsh and its predecessor companies, about 26 years. I am sorry. What position do you currently hold now?

I am a managing director. And any insurance experience prior to Marsh? Yes. I was an underwriter for about ten years first with

Commercial Union Insurance Company, and then with Firemans Fund Insurance Company, underwriting fidelity and surety bonds. Q A Q So you have what? A lot of years. And basically you were called to give your opinion or to Thirty-eight, 39 years of experience?

describe for us genuine certificates as opposed to certificates that were not genuine? A I can't say what the reason for my being called to testify

was. Q Well, you testified today as to genuine certificates,

correct, sir? A Q Yes, I did. And you testified to certificates that you thought were

altered?

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A Q

Timothy Wicker - Cross Yes, I did. All right. So let's go to Exhibit 300, if we can. And that

is the certificate, if I can refresh your recollection, that was issued to Capital Holdings, Alan Weed. certificate? A Q A Q And that was the first one we looked at? Yes, sir. Yeah. If we can go to the upper right-hand side. All right. Let Do you remember that

me know when you have had the opportunity -A Q I have it in front of me, yes. And that's one of the certificates that was genuinely issued

by your company? A Q Yes, it is. And it mentions Lloyd's of London as a reinsurer, correct,

on the upper right-hand side? A Q A Q Yes, it does. That is correct, right? Yes. You also discussed, pursuant to your questioning by

Mr. Kirsch regarding Exhibit 300, that there was a crimes policy that was attached to that or was represented in that certificate? A The certificate was issued to provide evidence of insurance,

provided under a particular insurance policy.

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Q A Q A Q

Timothy Wicker - Cross Sorry to get the terminology wrong. Insurance is full of jargon. And complicated? Yes. Yes, it is.

And you testified that evidence of representation if there

is some type of crimes -- I don't want to get the words wrong because I am obviously confusing things -- but that -- the evidence of insurance for crimes policy is somehow mentioned in that certificate, correct? A Yes. In the lower left-hand part of the insurance being

certificated by Exhibit 300, the first page, is evidence of insurance relative to Financial Institution Bond. Q And you mentioned that was a crimes policy involving

employees and third parties? A Q Yes. Same thing for Exhibit 301, which deals -- if we can pop

that up and blow up the first half, with the court's approval, of course. I am sorry. Leave is granted as requested. Let me retroactively ask for leave on

THE COURT: MR. GAINOR: Exhibit 300. THE COURT:

And leave belatedly is also granted.

But

counsel to expedite matters, again, once an exhibit has been admitted in evidence, it may be published without discrete request or leave of the court.

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Timothy Wicker - Cross MR. GAINOR: Thank you, your Honor. THE COURT: BY MR. GAINOR: Q We are now at Exhibit 301. And that is another genuine -- I You are welcome.

will give you time to put one back into the sleeve and pull another one out. A Q Yeah. Yes, I have it in front of me.

And Exhibit 301 represents another genuine -- genuinely You testified to that?

issued certificate by Marsh. A Q Yes.

And upper top also deals with reinsurance from Lloyd's of

London, that is correct? A Q A Yes. But this one deals with Monarch as opposed to Capital? Yes. MR. GAINOR: THE COURT: Mr. Goodreid. MR. GOODREID: THE COURT: Yes. Thank you, your Honor. I think I understand. Thank you.

Cross-examination on behalf of Mr. Weed by

You are welcome. CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. GOODREID: Q A Q Good morning, Mr. Wicker. Good morning. If we could pull up Exhibit 302, please. And that's a copy

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Timothy Wicker - Cross of the certificate that you indicated is not genuine, correct, Mr. Wicker? A Q A Q This is an altered document. It's a fake, forgery, right? The technical terms I would say it's altered. All right. It's not a certificate -- I don't mean to

quibble with you, it's not a certificate that Marsh Insurance issued, right? A Q A Q A Q We did not issue this. Now, that document is not signed by Mr. Weed, is it? No. It also wasn't sent to you by Mr. Weed, was it? Not to my recollection. Well, you testified on direct that you had received it from

some investor who was concerned, correct? A Q A Q Yes. And that investor is not Mr. Weed? No, it wasn't. Let's go to the legitimate certificates now. There were

some certificates that were issued that reflected a $50 million limit, right? A Q Yes. And then subsequent certificates were sent out that had

$200 million limits, correct? A Yes.

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Q

Timothy Wicker - Cross Now, somewhere somebody or some entity has a policy with a

cap on it; isn't that right? A Q Yes. And so the $50 million -- the $50 million certificate that

was issued clearly did not reflect that cap, correct? A Q No, it didn't. And the 200 million limit that was sent out did not reflect

that cap either, correct? A Q No, it did not. But there was nothing inappropriate about Marsh issuing a

certificate that had a $50 million certificate initially, was there? A Q No. And nothing inappropriate about Marsh issuing a certificate

at $200 million, correct? A Q No. And in this particular case, or perhaps in all cases, but in

this case the insured party was Wells Fargo, correct? A Q That's correct. In other words, the insurance company had an obligation to

Wells Fargo if an insurable event occurred, correct? A Q Yes. And as far as you know, Mr. Wicker, Wells Fargo in turn, if

an insurable event occurred, had some sort of obligation to its account holders, correct?

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A

Timothy Wicker - Cross Businesses are responsible to their clients for various

things that might happen to a greater or lesser degree, depending on law, and I think financial institutions have a high degree of responsibility with respect to customer accounts. Q Well, in this case specifically Marsh knew that Wells Fargo

had some obligation or at least some relationship with Capital Holdings, correct? A We did know there was a business relationship between

Monarch Capital Holdings and Wells Fargo. Q And that's the reason that Marsh was willing to issue a

certificate to Capital Holdings, correct? A We issued the certificate because we were requested to do so

by Wells Fargo but we understood it was in the context of their business relationship. Q Fair enough. So in other words, if just some individual

unconnected with Wells Fargo called and asked for a certificate, Marsh would have declined to render it, correct? A And we specifically declined to do it when Mr. Weed asked us

to do it. Q A Q Right. Yes. But Marsh Insurance did -- or excuse me -- Marsh did issue To these other individuals?

certificates with Mr. Weed's name on them because Wells Fargo had requested that, correct? A Yes.

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Q

Timothy Wicker - Cross So and it did it in two instances, correct?

It did it for

Capital Holdings and then subsequently for Monarch Capital Holdings? A Q That's right. And there is nothing inappropriate about Mr. Weed requesting

those certificates and