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0154 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 IN THE UNITED STATES COURT OF FEDERAL CLAIMS No. 00-169L Judge Emily C. Hewitt THE OSAGE NATION AND/OR TRIBE ) OF INDIANS OF OKLAHOMA, ) ) Plaintiff, ) vs. ) ) THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, ) ) Defendant. ) I N D E X MARGARET WILLIAMS Continued Direct Examination by Mr. Pilsk CERTIFICATE OF COMPLETION OF DEPOSITION DEPONENT SIGNATURE/CORRECTION PAGE PAGE 158 303 305

E X H I B I T S 10. 11. 12. 13. 14. 15. 7A. 7B. Statement of account Statement of account Statement of account Statement of account Statement of account Statement of account Yield Table Historical Yield Curve (7A & 7B Retained by Counsel)

MARKED 157 157 157 157 157 157 212 212

VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF MARGARET WILLIAMS VOLUME 2 August 19, 2005 11:18 AM 4400 Masthead, Northeast Second Floor Albuquerque, New Mexico PURSUANT TO THE FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE, this deposition was: TAKEN BY: MR. W. ERIC PILSK ATTORNEY FOR PLAINTIFF SALLY PETERS, RPR, CCR No. 57 Kathy Townsend Court Reporters 110 Twelfth Street, Northwest Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102

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REPORTED BY:

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A P P E A R A N C E S For the Plaintiff: AKIN, GUMP, STRAUSS, HAUER & FELD, LLP. Robert S. Strauss Building 1 2 3 4 Washington, DC 20036 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Justice. MR. WEBB: of the United States. MS. BRANDON: Elisabeth Brandon for the Office Kevin Webb, Department of Justice Oklahoma, Plaintiff, versus the United States of America, Defendant, Case No. 00-169 L in the United States Court of Federal Claims. We are recording at the Office of the Special Trustee for American Indians, 4400 Masthead, Northeast, Albuquerque, New Mexico. The court reporter is Sally Court (Williams Exhibits 10 - 15 marked.) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is Volume 2, Tape 1 in

the continuing deposition of Margaret Williams in the matter of the Osage Nation And/Or Tribe of Indians of

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1333 New Hampshire Avenue, Northwest

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BY:

MR. W. ERIC PILSK

For the Defendant: U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE Environment & Natural Resources Division

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General Litigation Section 601 D Street, Northwest

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Washington, DC BY:

20004

MR. MARTIN J. LaLONDE MR. KEVIN WEBB

Peters from Townsend Court Reporters.

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DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR Office of the Solicitor

videographer, Fran Hindsley from Legal Action Video. For the purposes of the video record, will the attorneys present and by phone please identify themselves? MR. PILSK: Eric Pilsk, Akin, Gump, Strauss,

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1849 C Street, Northwest MS 6456 Washington, DC 20240

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BY:

ELISABETH C. BRANDON STEPHEN SIMPSON, Attending via telephone Hauer & Feld, for Plaintiff. MR. LaLONDE: Martin LaLonde, Department of

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of the Solicitor, Department of the Interior. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: us? Mr. Simpson, are you with

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And by phone, Mr. Stephen Simpson will also be with us by phone. The date is August 19, 2005. We are now on the record. MARGARET WILLIAMS after having been previously duly sworn under oath, was questioned and testified further as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. PILSK: Q. Mrs. Williams, my name is Eric Pilsk. You The time is

on Mrs. Williams' personal knowledge, and then the 30(b)(6), which is going to be based on the work that she has done with these binders and getting herself up to speed on an historical period that predates her time here so. MR. PILSK: I understood that, and I'm going

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to start with a few questions to finish up the fact part of it before transitioning into the 30(b)(6) part of it. Q. (BY MR. PILSK) I understand, and correct me

if I'm wrong, that you worked for Arthur Andersen in the early 1990s? A. Q. Andersen? A. Q. A. Q. Andersen? A. Q. I was a staff accountant. Okay. Were you involved in any of the Arthur 1990 to 1992. Okay. And where were you based? Yes. What was your period of employment with Arthur

were deposed earlier in the week, is that correct? A. Q. A. Q. apply. Correct. Just remind you that you are still under oath. Uh-huh. And the same general rules of depositions Your deposition on Tuesday -- was it Tuesday or I'm sorry. Tuesday. It was with Mr. Rothrock from my office, and

Wednesday? A. Q.

Here in Albuquerque. Okay. And generally what did you do at Arthur

because of your travel and his schedule, the parties have agreed that I'm going to continue the deposition today. here. I understand that you had a late flight last night, and that you get migraines from time to time. If So just to let you know who I am and why I am

Andersen work related to tribal auditing? A. Q. on? Yes, I was. Okay. What project or projects did you work

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you need a break at any time for any reason, please let me know. We'll take a break. If you feel you are

1 2 3 4 5 6 that?

A.

I worked on the 1990 audit, and then very

little at the beginning of the 1972 reconciliation project. Q. Okay. Which -- the 1990 audit, which audit is

unable to continue, please let us know and we'll stop the deposition. If we can adjust the shades or do

anything else to make you more comfortable, just let us know. A. Q. Thank you. If you need a break for any other reason, also We tend to -- I tend to take a break every

A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.

The financial audit -Of? -- of the trust funds. Of the trust funds, okay. Yes. And approximately what timeframe did you work

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let us know.

hour to hour and a half almost no matter what, but, you know, let me know if you need something sooner. A. Q. Okay. Just the same rules of a general deposition, I am

on that trust fund audit? A. I worked -- well, I worked for Arthur Andersen

I'm going to ask you a series of questions.

from approximately May 1990, May, June 1990 to around July or August 1992. So it had to be -- I mean, it was

entitled to your best answer based on your knowledge and recollection. I'll hand you exhibits from time to time.

a very short timeframe, so it had to be right in there. The audit work transitioned right into the reconciliation work, so it had to be right in that timeframe. Q. Were you working with the same team of people

If you need to refer to a document to answer a question, let me know and we'll do our best to make that available. MR. LaLONDE: Eric, if I may just interject

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one item that we explained to Jerry and had agreement with Jerry, and just want to make sure that it was passed on to you as well. We are trying to make sure

throughout your time at Arthur Andersen? A. No, because I didn't work only on that job. I

worked on other jobs at Arthur Andersen. Q. Okay. With respect to the tribal work, both

that we have a clear demarcation between the fact deposition that we're doing, which is going to be based

the 1990 audit and the reconciliation project, did you

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work with the same team on both of those projects? A. Q. I believe it was primarily the same team. Okay. What were your -- what did you do in

person that would have reviewed my work. Q. Okay. All right. And who else, do you recall

who else you either reported to or reviewed your work in connection with the 1990 audit? A. Jim Thompson was a person that I remember

connection with the 1990 audit? A. The details of what I did, you know, that was I don't actually recall. It was

over 12 years ago.

reviewing work. Q. A. Okay. There were other managers, but their names are

staff accounting work, so it would be checking work papers that came in from the client, you know, re-adding things that came in -Q. A. Okay. -- verifying things, that the type of work

escaping me right now. Q. A. work. Q. Do you recall how many people Arthur Andersen Okay. There were lots of people that reviewed my

that a staff accountant would have done. Q. A. Q. A. Okay. I'm not an accountant.

I'm sorry. No, that's all right. Just the details of that so many years ago,

had working on the 1990 audit? A. I would say there were probably eight or nine

people working on that audit at any given time. Q. Okay. When, do you recall, did your work

exactly the work that I did. Q. No, I understand, and what I meant was that I So --

transition from the 1990 audit into the reconciliation project? A. I'm not exactly sure, but I would say

don't know what a staff accountant would do. A. Q. A. Oh, okay.

So I could be more general than --

Yes, that would be helpful. Okay. Well, they would check. You know, they

approximately January of 1992. Q. Okay. And actually one -- go back for one I understand that you're going

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would re-add work papers or -- when you ask the client to give you schedules, they are called prepared by client schedules. And a staff accountant would

more housekeeping note.

to need to take a break to get some food -A. Uh-huh.

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generally re-add them -- do they add? the date on it, you know.

They would verify

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 that.

Q. A. Q.

-- for your medication? Uh-huh. When do you think you'll need to do that? I

So that would be the type of

work that I would have done. Q. Okay. Do you recall if you did any work in

just want to -A. Q. Maybe about 12:30. Okay, that's fine. How did you -- strike

connection with any Osage Nation accounts? A. Q. I don't recall if I did that. Do you recall if you did any work in

What were you told about the 1972 reconciliation

connection with any specific tribal account? A. Q. I don't recall that. Who did you report to at Arthur Andersen, in

project when you first began working on it? A. Q. By who? Well, who did you -- how did you learn about

connection with the tribal work? A. One of the people that I reported to in

the project? A. I don't know. I mean, that was so many years

connection with the tribal work was Greg Chavarria. Q. How much contact did you have with him on a

ago, and, I mean, to say -- you would have to be more specific. Q. I mean, who did I learn it from first? Yes. Well, let me tell you what I'm trying to

weekly basis? A. I would say 50 percent of my time I would have

lay a foundation for but lead up to. A. Q. Okay. And that is, when you first began working on

contact with him, because he wasn't my only supervisor. Q. you. Let me rephrase it and make sure I understand

How many -- did you meet with him daily? A. Q. A. Q. No. Did you talk to him daily? No. Okay. So when you said a moment ago, contact,

that, what you call the 1972 reconciliation project -A. Q. Uh-huh. -- what was your understanding of the task, of

what the purpose of the '72 reconciliation project was? A. Actually, as you sit here and ask the question

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you mean even the work that you were doing was for him? A. Not necessarily. He wouldn't be the only

right now, the memory that pops into my head is being briefed on the reconciliation project by the then

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chairman of the Intertribal Monitoring Association, who was Eloise Cobell, and she gave us a very rousing speech about how important it was, and that it was a reconciliation project that would help the tribes understand what had happened with their money. And

disbursement documents, but I recall sitting there with documents and comparing them to what posted in the finance system, and if it was correct, checking it off. Q. Okay. So, presumably you had some kind of

record that reflected that, for example, a deposit had been made in a given account? A. Q. Correct. And then you had some other record that

because it's happened so many years ago, when you asked me the question just now, that's the memory that popped into my head. Q. A. building. Q. or was it? A. time. No, it wasn't Arthur Andersen's office at the It was the Office of Trust Funds Management's And who -- is that Arthur Andersen's offices Do you recall where she gave this talk? Yeah, it was downtown in the Western Bank

reflected the account activity, is that correct? A. Q. Correct. And you would look on the record of the

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deposit and say on a certain date a deposit in a certain amount was made, and then look on the account record and verify whether or not the account record reflects that deposit being made on that day? A. Right. I just don't remember if I was looking But, yes, I was looking

offices at the time, and it was a speech that was given to the reconciliation team, which was Arthur Andersen. I was still working with Arthur Andersen at the time, but she was giving the speech to the team. Q. And were there representatives from the Bureau I cannot keep straight. Which

at a deposit or a disbursement.

at a record and then account activity and comparing them. Q. Okay. I'm sure this was on the record

or the -- I apologize. entity? A. Q.

previously, and I apologize if I repeat a few questions, but you are a CPA, is that correct? A. Q. A. Yes. And were you at the time you worked -No, I wasn't.

It was the Bureau at the time. The Bureau, okay. Were the representatives of

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the Bureau also present at this meeting?

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A. Q.

Yes. Did you learn anything, as you worked on the

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Q.

Okay.

Had you -- what was your background in

accounting at the time you worked for Arthur Andersen? A. At the time I worked for Arthur Andersen, I

project, did anyone at Arthur Andersen tell you or did you come to the conclusion that the purpose of the reconciliation project was different than what Ms. Cobell had explained at that meeting? A. Q. Not that I recall. Okay. Did anyone at Arthur Andersen, as you

had a bachelor's in business administration, and I had with a concentration in accounting and finance. Q. A. Okay. But I had not taken the CPA exam at the time.

It was not a requirement that you had taken it -Q. A. But when did you --- until you had reached a certain level, and

sit here and begin to think, remember and think about it, did anyone at Arthur Andersen give a briefing to the members of the reconciliation team at Arthur Andersen about what the project was, what you were doing? A. briefing. Q. Okay. What did you do in connection with the I don't recall one separate from this

I resigned from Arthur Andersen before I had hit that requirement. Q. When did you take your CPA exam? When did you pass your CPA? Let me

rephrase it. A.

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Oh, it was after I worked here at the Office It's been awhile. I don't

reconciliation project? A. I reconciled documents. I would literally sit

of Trust Funds Management. know the exact year. Q. A. Okay.

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there and check off, you know, documents, reconcile. Q. So you had two documents in front of you, and

But you're sure you passed it? I remember

Oh, yes, I'm sure I passed it.

you were comparing them? A. I had a document in front of me, and I would

celebrating at the mailbox when I got the scores. Q. We all did the same thing, I'm sure, when we

see that it was posted to the system correctly. Q. Okay. What did you -- do you recall what

passed the bar. When you -- again, I am not an accountant, when you say reconcile, what does that mean? A. Comparing something to something else.

documents you looked at? A. I don't recall whether they were receipt or

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Q.

And making sure that they match up or noting

Q.

Do you know whether the MoneyMax to finance

if they don't match up? A. Q. Correct. Do you recall whether you did any

system reconciliation was ever incorporated into the '72 reconciliation? A. Q. I don't know. Okay. Now, the MoneyMax system, is that a

reconciliation work regarding any Osage Nation accounts? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. In the '72 -Yes. -- reconciliation? Yes. I don't recall if I did. Do you recall whether -- any specific tribal

Bureau system? A. Q. Yes. Was. It was. And the finance system was a Bureau

system, is that correct? A. Q. Yes. Okay. As part of this reconciliation, the

account you might have looked at? A. Q. I don't recall. As you reconcile an account, would you have

MoneyMax to finance system, did you look at or review Department of Treasury documents? A. Q. No. There was no reconciliation between either the

been able to tell what account it was? A. I don't recall whether they were sorted by

MoneyMax and/or the finance systems and any Department of Treasury systems? A. Q. No. And who did you work for or report to in

accounts at that time, you know, when we -- when they were given to the staff accountant to reconcile. don't recall if they were sorted that way. Q. Okay. Other than the 1990 audit and the 1972 I

connection with the MoneyMax to finance system reconciliation? A. Q. A. was. I don't remember on that. Was it also Greg Chavarria? It could have been, but I don't recall if it

reconciliation project, did you do any other work at Arthur Andersen related to tribal matters? A. Q. A. Yes. And what else did you do? I reconciled the MoneyMax system to the

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finance system. Q. A. Q. A. Okay. And was there a name for that project?

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Q.

Was there a tribal accounting group or team at Was it organized in that kind of a

Arthur Andersen? way? A.

Just that. Okay. And when did you work on that?

I don't know if they were called a tribal I mean, it was more jobs. If I You

It would have been during that time period I don't remember

accounting group.

that I worked at Arthur Andersen.

recall, Arthur Andersen was organized by jobs. worked different jobs. Q. A. Q. A. Q. What are some examples? Well, I don't know if I can say. What was your job? I mean --

specifically, other than it would have been within that time period. Q. Okay.

understand each other, what is the MoneyMax system and what is the finance system? A. The finance system is the official system of

You can't -- is there -- you can't remember or

record that the tribal trust funds operated on prior to the Omni system, and it's the system that was used for the '72 reconciliation, during that time period. And

you cannot tell me for some other reason? A. I don't know. I mean, can I start listing off Is that

the jobs that I worked on at Arthur Andersen? allowed? Q.

the MoneyMax system is an investment management system that was used to record the detail investment information for a sub-time period. It doesn't cover

Here's my question, when you said jobs, are

you referring to clients? A. Q. A. Q. Yes, clients. Okay. Not job description?

that entire '72 to '92 time period, but a sub period of that time period. Q. Was this MoneyMax to finance system

No, clients. Okay, okay. So, you were organized around

reconciliation a part of the '72 reconciliation, or was it a separate project? A. I believe it was a separate project.

client teams? A. Q. Right, clients, client teams. And in this case your clients was the Bureau

my understanding it was separate.

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of Indian Affairs? A. Q. A. Q. Right. Okay. Right. Going back to the '72 reconciliation for a

10,000, 10,000, you know, whatever. Q. A. 50,000. A group of transactions that add up to the 50? A group of transactions that add up to the And so if that was wrong, you know, added up to

60,000, then I would propose the transaction that would fix it. If finance needed to add up to 60,000, MoneyMax

moment, the -- when you looked at the documents you were reconciling -A. Q. Uh-huh. -- can you recall generically what the

was actually right, the 60,000 was right and the 50,000 was wrong, then I would propose a transaction that would fix the 50,000. Q. A. How would you know which was right? By the source documentation from the security

documents were or would have been? A. They would have been, since I was dealing with

receipt and disbursement documents, they would have been SF104s, SF1166s, and that's the extent of what I remember they would have been. Q. Okay. And do you recall finding instances

transaction. Q. A. Okay. Because what MoneyMax was, was holding

subsidiary -- what MoneyMax and finance system were reconciling was security investment transactions. how I would know what was right was the source documentation on the investment. Q. Okay. So on that reconciliation project, the So

where you could not reconcile something, where you found a transaction on one document that wasn't reflected in the other? A. Q. I don't recall finding that. Do you recall what you were supposed to do

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MoneyMax to finance system, you would have additional documents, source documents, to verify? A. Q. A. Right. And you would refer to those? From the broker, from the custodian. This is

when you found -- when you were unable to reconcile a given transaction? A. Q. No, I don't recall that. Okay. Did you -- was it part of your job to

look behind the documents that you were given for any

actually what happened, this is actually what's right.

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further support or explanation for the transactions that were reflected on the documents that you were looking at? A. Q. A. Q. A. Can I go back to a previous question? Sure. Which reconciliation were you talking about? I'm sorry. The 1972 reconciliation project.

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So I would fix whichever system was off based on the actual source document. Q. Okay. Now turning back to the '72

reconciliation, were there any source documents behind the accounts that you were looking at? A. Yeah, there were. I just don't recall. See,

I don't remember hitting one that was wrong, so I don't remember what I did -Q. A. Okay. -- on that. And I just didn't work on it very

When you say do you recall what you were

supposed to do if you couldn't reconcile? Q. A. Q. Yes. Then I don't recall. Okay. You want to answer? What did you do on

long, so I don't have a memory of what was done. Q. Okay. Were there any other Bureau matters

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the MoneyMax to finance system? A. Q. A. Proposed an adjustment for a correction. Okay. And how would you know what to propose?

that you worked on while at Arthur Andersen? A. Q. Not that I recall. Okay. Did you do any work for any tribal --

Because one was a subsidiary system to the The MoneyMax was a subsidiary to the

were there any tribal clients -- not the Bureau, but a specific tribe, while at Arthur Andersen? A. but no. Q. is no? A. Q. But no. Okay. Did you do any other work related to Well, without naming a tribe, but the answer Well, I'm not sure that I could have told you,

other system.

finance system, so either one or the other would need a correction. So I would propose an adjustment to the

finance system or propose an adjustment to MoneyMax. Q. Okay. I guess when you say subsidiary system,

what does that mean? A. It means that it's holding the detail to a Finance, for example, finance

summary transaction.

tribal funds for any other, any client other than the Bureau while at Arthur Andersen?

would hold a $50,000 hit, and MoneyMax would be holding

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A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.

I'm sorry. Well, we know you worked on Bureau matters. Right. In the three matters that we talked about. Right. And then you testified that you did not do any

Funds, Osage Tribe Holding Account," according to the title. Q. account? A. Q. A. Q. It -- yes. Okay. What does restored funds mean? It's the title on the account. Okay. And did you prepare this statement of

work for any tribe as a client? A. Q. Right. And my question is just a catch-all. Did you

I don't know. Okay.

Do you know what kind of funds are in

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the account? A. What I know just from the account title is

do any work for any other client that related to tribal funds? A. Q. Oh, no. Okay. Without naming any client, did you do

that it's a proceeds of labor account, which means that the account is completely controlled by the tribe, which means they get to withdraw the funds whenever they want to, and they basically direct how long the funds are invested, and they also could direct the title of the funds. Now, because we're talking about Osage Nation, though, some of these account numbers are held over from a very, very, very long time ago, and could be governed by public laws. But I personally haven't researched

12 13 14 15 16 Were these private companies or 17 18 19 20 And if we could go off the record 21 22 We are temporarily going 23 24 25

work for any other client besides the Bureau while you were at Arthur Andersen? A. Q. Yes. Okay.

individuals? A. Q. Yes. Okay. MR. PILSK: for just a minute. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: off the record at 11:45. (Recess held from 11:45 to 11:45 AM.)

this account, so I couldn't tell you. Q. When I asked you a moment ago whether you What

prepared this statement of account, you said yes. does that mean? A.

That means that my organization, the Trust

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q.

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: the record at 11:45. Q. (BY MR. PILSK)

We are back on

1 2

Services, is responsible for issuing a statement of account from the trust funds accounting system. Q. Okay. Do you, yourself have any direct

Okay.

Let me hand you what

3 4 5 6 7

we've marked as Exhibit 10, and these are -- the next few exhibits are going to be these accounts. MR. LaLONDE: starting on? MR. PILSK: This is 7469. I believe you provided to Which one are we

involvement with this account, with managing this account? A. I manage the investments. My office, my

division of trust investments invests the funds on this account. I have an investment officer that will work

8 9 10 11 12 13 14

(BY MR. PILSK)

directly with the tribe. Q. Okay. Look on the second page. Can you just

Mr. Rothrock on Tuesday statements of accounts for, I believe six different accounts? A. Q. account? A. Q. Yes. Okay. Again, I don't want to -- I don't mean Uh-huh. Is this one of those account -- statements of

walk me through, and for a non-accountant, explain to me what this shows? A. Okay. This is an asset summary, and what it

is showing you is the holdings, the asset holdings on the account. The first column is the asset category,

15 16 17 18 19 Thank you. Can you 20 21 22 23 24 25

and it's showing you that this is a principal only account. So it's showing you the principal portfolio.

to make us go over old ground, but why did you provide these accounts? A. Q. Because he asked me to. That's a good reason.

The first category is the US Treasury overnighter, which is our short-term investment fund. It's showing you

that at cost, which is at dollar value, there is $3,667.68 in the overnighter as of -- if you go up to the top -- 7/31/05. Q. A. Q. Okay. Yes. Okay. Is that $3,667.68 figure the principal? This is a principal only account, so -So that is the amount -- is that the

identify this Exhibit 10? A. Q. It's a statement of account for PL7469700. Okay. What is that account number? What kind

of -- what is that an account for? A. It's a proceeds of labor account for "Restored

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amount invested in US Treasury overnighters as of July -A. Q. A. 7/31/05. Okay. Yes. The next column is going to tell you the

Q.

Again, is that just projecting out from this

amount of capital of investment? A. Right, and it's projecting out a year forward

3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 You're 19 20 21 22 Yes. 23 24 25

from that date, and it's only estimated, we always say. Income yield at cost, again it's exactly that. income yield at the cost, and it's a projection. Q. And then how does, on the total assets line, It's the

market rate as of that date, the percent of account at the market. So it's at a 2.98 percent. That's what the

market rate of the overnighter is. Q. 2.98 percent, does that mean -- looking at the What does

on the income yield at cost number is 2.65, how is that number derived? A. It's a number that's derived as what you're

next row -- at the government entity issues? that stand for, US government -A.

yielding, what your income yield is going to be at based on cost. Q. Okay. So it's, I guess what I would call, a You are taking the two, your two

That is the summarized value of the US

sponsored government entity issues that it's invested in, and let's finish with this page, and then we'll go to the next page which will show you the detail of what's in that category. Q. I guess what I'm confused about is what this

weighted average?

investments in the overnighters and the Treasuries -A. Q. together. Right. -- or the other ones, and adding them In a sense you're combining them to see what

percent of account at market means. A. right. I'm sorry. I just misread the column.

your average yield is? A. Right. And it's only a snapshot, so it's And your overnighter changes by day,

It's telling you how much of the total amount of

the account is in -Q. A. Q. issues -Each of those --- that category.

going to change.

so it's even a bigger snapshot that you're taking at the end of the month. Q. A. Okay. And now you have your list of your assets, so

Because I was going to invest in those entity

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that.

A. Q. A.

I'm sorry. Okay.

You're right.

I misread.

1 2 3 4

it looks like the US Government sponsored entities is just one security for this particular account, and this is where you get your detail listed. Q. Okay. So, these are the same figures but

It's telling you how much of the account is in

Q. A.

In each one? Yes. The next column is the market value, and

5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

broken out, if there were more than one -A. If there were multiple securities, it would

since the government overnighter is dollar for dollar, it's going to be the same. Q. Okay. And then the other column is a lesser

have been broken out by security. Q. A. Q. A. Okay. Page three?

And page three is your bond maturity schedule. Okay. If you had multiple securities here, it would

value because it's for a given term? A. Q. A. Right. Is that correct? Yeah. It's not dollar for dollar, and we'll

have listed it out for you. Q. A. And page four? Is your transactions, and one of these

know what's going on a little bit more on the next page when it breaks out the detail. Q. A. Okay. Unrealized gain/loss, cost to market, dollar This is telling you

statements that you get to -- this would be very exciting -- there's going to be the big account, the 7386, has a lot of transactions here. Q. okay. A. Right. So this -- I'm just going through,

for dollar there in the first line.

you have an unrealized loss of 284.40 in the next category, but we'll get the detail on the next page if there's multiple securities involved. Estimated annual

So it reflects that on -7/1 the government overnighter paid interest.

Has your beginning balance. Q. Okay. Where does it reflect -- I see the

income, on this particular category, this is a summarized category, is $117 for the overnighter and then 31.50 for that other category. estimated. Again it's

overnighter, but where does it reflect the other securities? A. This is just your -- I'm sorry.

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Q.

So those were already purchased?

Is that what

A. Q.

Okay. This is 9701 account, the commencement money

this is showing? A. Yes. What do you mean where is your other See your

3 4 5 6 7

and other damages. A. Uh-huh. This is account number PL 7549-70-1

securities?

Your cost is built in here.

beginning cost there, 123,457.59. Q. 123 -A. And then, see how you have your ending balance Right. I guess what I'm confused about is the

"Commencement Money and Other Damages to Tribal Trust Land as the Result of Drilling Operations, 25 CFR 19." Q. manages? A. Q. Yes. And generally, what is -- do you know what is What does Okay. And is this an account that your office

8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

here, 123,464.88, which matches your holding on your assets summary. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. I see, you only bought 7.29? Right, because that's your interest. Okay. Which swept into the overnighter. Right, okay. Okay. Let me take a step back before we go through

in -- what kind of funds are in this account? commencement money and other damages mean? A. Q. I would have to research that. Okay.

As investment manager, you don't -- do

you ever have occasion to really research what exactly -- what kinds of funds are in the account? A. I'm not the immediate investment manager. I

these other ones, and I don't think we need to go through them all in so much detail. A. Q. Okay, yeah. They all work alike.

have -- I'm the deputy special trustee for trust services, so I am basically four levels above the immediate investment manager of the account. Q. A. know." Q. Okay. All right. Why don't we take a look at Okay. Which is why you're getting the, "I don't

Are these all the Osage accounts that your

office deals with? A. Q. A. Currently. Currently. Uh-huh.

Exhibit 12, and ask you to identify that document?

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Q.

Okay.

Have there been other accounts that

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 7387.

A.

This is account number PL73850 -- I'm sorry --

your office has managed over time? A. Q. I would have to research that. Okay. In the 1972 reconciliation project --

708, Osage Fund. Q. A. Q. Do you know what the Osage Fund is? No. Okay. But your office is responsible for

and I'll use that term, even though I know it's not the official name -A. Q. Right. -- but as a shorthand, there were -- we have

managing this account? A. Q. Correct. Okay. And you prepared or asked someone to

various of the work -- of the results of that reconciliation, that project, have been produced to us and were testified to at Mr. Chavarria's deposition earlier this week. There were a number of other account I am

prepare this particular statement of account? A. Correct. I have an office that is responsible

for preparing the statement for this account. Q. Okay. Let me hand you Exhibit 13. That's the

numbers, and which aren't reflected here.

wondering if you would have any idea of what happened, why those account numbers aren't here, why you haven't produced them? A. Q. I would have to research that. I mean, for example, there was an account Does that? I mean, there's any

A.

Account number PL7387704, "Osage Tribe

proceeds from non-oil and gas, Osage Reservation." Q. manages? A. Q. Yes. And did you ask that this statement, Exhibit Okay. Is this an account that your office

number, and it was ended with 7171. A. I would have to research.

13, be prepared? A. My office is -- I have -- I manage an office

number of reasons why that account might not be here now. Q. Okay. Why don't we just -- I just at least So let me hand

that's responsible for generating a statement for these accounts. Q. A. And your office generated this Exhibit 13? Yes.

23 24 25

want to ask you to identify each one. you what's been marked as Exhibit 11.

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Q.

And do you know what the proceeds from non-oil

Q.

First, are you -- are these all of the Osage

and gas, Osage reservation, what those funds are, where they came from? A. Q. I would -- no, not without researching. Okay. Okay. And let me hand you Exhibit 14,

accounts that your office currently manages? A. Q. To the best of my knowledge right now. Okay. Is there someone else in your office

who would be -- who would have more knowledge about the Osage account that your office manages? A. Q. Not that I know of. Do specific individuals in your office have

and ask you to identify this document. A. Account Number JA 9271121, "Award of Indian

Claims Commission, Osage Nation, Dockets 105 and 106 and 107 and 108 - 9271." Q. account? A. Q. Yes. And do you know what kinds of funds are put Okay. And does your office manage this

responsibility for specific tribes, or is it broken up in a different way? A. They have specific knowledge for -- they are

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 And finally, let me show you Exhibit 19 20

responsible for specific tribes, and I want to clarify that my office is only responsible for the management of the investments. There is another office that is

into this particular account? A. Q. Not beyond what's in the title. Okay. And did your office prepare this

responsible for a trust administrator type function for other types of information and interaction with the tribe. Q. And who is the person in your office who has

specific exhibit, Williams Exhibit 11? A. Q. Yes. Okay.

the responsibility for the Osage investments? A. Q. A. Q. Sonny Holiday. And is Sonny, is that a male or female? Male. Okay. Are these statement of accounts that we

A.

Account Number PL7386706, "Osage Tribe

21 22 23 24 25

Proceeds of Oil and Gas Lease Royalties, et cetera, or etc., Osage Reservation - 7386." Q. Okay. And is your office responsible for

have marked as Exhibits 10 through 15, provided to the Osage Nation?

managing this account?

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A. Q.

Yes. Okay. And did your office prepare this

1 2 3 4 Are you familiar with what kind of 5 6 7 What is your understanding? 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 I want to come back and ask you a few 20 21 22 23 24 25

A. Q. A. Q.

Yes. And how often? Monthly and then annually. Okay. Are they sent from your office directly

specific statement of account identified as Exhibit 15? A. Q. Yes. Okay.

to the tribe? A. Q. Yes. Okay. Do you know for how long, either

money is placed into this account? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And what is that?

statements for these accounts or their predecessor accounts, were sent to the tribe? A. Q. A. Q. I would have to research that. Okay. I don't know. Have they been sent to the tribe since you

Oil and gas royalties. Okay. Why do you have -- know more about this

account than you did about the other accounts? A. Because the quarterly annuity is paid out of

this account, and I'm familiar with the calculation and payment of the quarterly annuity. Q. A. Q. A. And how did you become familiar with that? It's a big deal in my office every quarter. Okay. So it's an ongoing, daily operation every

assumed your current position? A. Q. Yes. Okay. I don't want to go over your whole work

history again, but prior -- how long -- excuse me -- how long have you been in your current position? A. Q. office? A. Q. In the Office of the Special Trustee, yes. Okay. Okay. Do you ever recall a time when Since April of '03. And prior to that, did you work in the same

quarter for us. Q. Okay.

specific questions about Exhibit 15 -A. Q. Okay. -- but I want to ask you a question about all

of these accounts kind of collectively for a moment. A. Okay.

statements of account were not sent to tribes directly? A. No.

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Q.

Okay.

If you turn to Exhibit 15, which is the

daily transaction on the transaction activity? A. If the tribe has money coming in and has You can see it here. For

proceeds of oil and gas 7387 account, and if you look on page six, for example, on the upper right hand corner -A. Q. Uh-huh. -- there is an entry on 7/5/05, cash receipt

invested it, it's reflected. instance, let's see. Q. A. See --

What page are you looking at? Cash receipt, cash receipt, cash receipt. Cash receipt, cash Let's see.

income as-of-investment overnight interest earned, 6/29/05. Do you know if overnight interest, is it

Hold on, I'm looking for it here. receipt, and cash receipt.

posted daily or on some other basis? A. Overnight interest generally is posted

Let me find it.

Well, if there was, if the overnighter was buying here, there would be a transaction reflected. transaction would be here. So the

monthly, on the first business day of the month. Q. daily? A. Q. A. Why is it not posted daily? Yes. Because it's just standard industry practice It's compounded daily in the Okay. And why is that? Why is it not posted

Now, the whole overnighter

activity that's happening at the Treasury level is not reflected here in the account, but is reflected in an overnight, a different account within the TFAS system. So that's what I was trying to get at. Q. Well, I guess what I'm not understanding is If the tribe

13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

to post it monthly.

calculation, but we only distribute it monthly. Q. Okay. So on Monday -- just to make sure I

that your reference to the tribe.

directs -- is it -- does the tribe direct certain funds to be invested in an overnighter? A. Q. A. The default investment is the overnighter. But if the tribe makes another investment? Then it would go into something other than the

understand -- on Monday if there's -- just use a round number -- if there's $100,000 in the account and then you invest that -A. Q. Uh-huh. -- all that $100,000 into an overnighter, and

overnighter. Q. A. And that would be reflected -Yes.

it's going to earn some amount of interest, a dollar? A. Uh-huh.

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Q.

Then on Tuesday, you take that $100,000 plus

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

Q. A. Q. A. Q.

On Exhibit 15 -Yes. -- or a similar statement of account? Yes. Okay. And the rates on the overnight, are

that $1.00 and invest that in an overnighter? A. Q. A. Q. Uh-huh, uh-huh. Okay. And it's reflected in the rate. Okay. Is there an account or ledger sheet or

those the rates that they're paid reflected on Exhibit 15 anywhere, or would that be reflected on the other statement? A. Let's see. MR. LaLONDE: Q. page 25. A. Q. Page 25. Okay. At the bottom of the page, the last Well, (BY MR. PILSK) Objection, vague. For example, if you look on

some other place where the daily investments are tracked? A. Q. Yes. Okay. But per industry practice, they are

9 10 11 12 13 14 15 And similarly, even though this shows 16 17 18 19

just simply not posted to this account until the first of every month? A. Q. A. Q. The interest? Yes. Yes. Okay.

three entries appear to reflect interest earned.

the last two say cash receipt of interest earned on government overnighter, and then there is some detail. A. Q. This does not appear to have the rate posted. Okay. And, then, what is the entry above

transactions, the daily transaction of investment and payout is not reflected as a daily transaction, is that correct? A. Q. The daily? The investments. Every day you're investing

20 21 22 23 24 25

that, that says cash receipt income on as-of-investment, overnight interest earned. A. Yes. Do you know what that means?

money in the overnighters and then getting it back the next day, is that right? A. Q. Yes. But that's not, it's just not reflected as a

If a -- if a cash receipt comes in late

and misses the overnight investment cutoff, we have the ability to invest it the next day with Treasury as if we had received it, and get as-of interest, and it's,

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because we can prove with Treasury that we couldn't see it. It was in the Treasury system. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. I see. But we couldn't see it. So Treasury had the money? Treasury had the money. And they actually invested it? No, they didn't invest it. Oh, okay. Treasury had the money in their system.

A. Q. A.

The answer to that is yes. Okay. And he might have asked me to get that, but

that question should be directed to the attorneys. MR. LaLONDE: one around, if you want. We can look to see if we have I mean, I will look at that

this afternoon to see what we have, and we'll get it produced to you. MR. PILSK: Q. that. was? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. It's a list. Are they done regularly? Yes. What's -- how regularly? They've been done regularly since 1995. Okay. And then prior to that time, the Arthur Okay. Thank you.

(BY MR. PILSK)

Just a couple questions about

just that we couldn't see it to invest it, and as long as we can prove that with Treasury, they let us invest it as of the day before. It's called an as-of

Do you know when the audit of the trust funds

investment, and that's what that's reflecting. Q. And so the tribe is credited with the interest

that they should have earned? A. As if it was -- yeah. As if it's, yeah,

17 18 19 20 21 22 23

that's exactly it. Q. Do you know how long that as-of investment

practice has been going on? A. Q. that? A. Q. No. Okay. Was there a specific -- was there some I believe since 1999. Do you know what the practice was prior to

Andersen, 1988, '89, '90. Q. A. Q. Okay. And by regularly, what, how regularly?

Annually. So annually since '95, and then the three

24 25

Arthur Andersens in '88, '89, and '90, and are you aware of any others?

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kind of decision or regulatory action of some sort, by either the Treasury or the Bureau, that put that as-of investment practice in place? A. Q. A. Q. It was Cobell. The court decision? Uh-huh. Okay. There's a couple more questions on the

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16

A. Q.

Not that I know of. Okay. Who currently does the auditing of the

trust funds? A. Q. A. audit. KPMG. With your office or the Bureau as the client? I believe the IG is the client. It's an IG

It's actually an IG audit with KPMG doing it

fact side, and then I think it would be a good time to break for lunch coming up on your time. A. Q. Yes. In Tuesday's deposition with Mr. Rothrock, I Are you okay?

under contract with the IG, and they do Interior as well as us. Q. Okay. MR. PILSK: Okay. Why don't we stop there,

believe he asked you if there were any audited financials for the Osage? A. Q. find them. A. Yes. And I think he asked you to see if you could Were you able to? I didn't actually look. Audited financials of

and end the fact part of the and -THE WITNESS: MR. PILSK: THE WITNESS: MR. PILSK: record now. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: off the record at 12:16 PM. (Recess held from 12:16 to 1:18 PM.) (Mr. Simpson was not present by telephone.) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: at 1:18 PM. Q. (BY MR. PILSK) Okay. Ms. Williams, we're now We are back on the record We are temporarily going Okay. -- break for lunch? Thank you. How long -- we can go off the

17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

the Osage, no, he didn't ask me that. Q. A. What did he ask you? He asked me if there were -- well, he might I do There

have asked me that, and the answer to that is no. not know of any audited financials of the Osage.

might have been another question called, are there any audited financials of the trust fund as a whole. Q. Yes.

going to shift focus areas now, and away from your

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direct job duties and direct job responsibilities into what we're calling the 30(b)(6) portion of the deposition. 30(b)(6)? A. Q. Yes. Let me hand you -- do we have the -- well, let Do you understand what I mean by the

liquids extracted therefrom, produced during the relevant months." What's your understanding of what that subject matter means? A. My understanding of what that subject matter

5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Hello. Hello. Hi, Steve. Yeah. We're starting the deposition 13 14 15 16 17 18

means is what happened to the oil and gas royalties for those subject months in terms of the investment and then the disbursement of and the accounting of, at least of the investment and disbursement of. Q. Okay. And similarly with respect to the other

me hand you what we have previously marked as Exhibit 1. That's actually my copy, but it's the 30(b)(6) deposition notice. And I flagged, the green flag

indicates where the description of the subjects we asked for testimony regarding. subjects -MS. BRANDON: MR. SIMPSON: MS. BRANDON: MR. SIMPSON: MS. BRANDON: again. MR. SIMPSON: MR. LaLONDE: MR. SIMPSON: Q. (BY MR. PILSK) Okay. Apologize. That's all right. Can you either look at that Can you identify what

subject topic, 1.g, which is, "The rates of return obtained on investments of payments owed to the Osage Nation and made and/or received by the United States for any and all royalties on crude oil and natural gas, including liquids extracted therefrom, produced during the relevant months, including but not limited to, discussions, analysis, considerations, comments, deliberations, alternatives, and/or conclusions relating to such investments." Prior to preparing for this deposition, did you have any firsthand knowledge of that topic? A. Again, the only firsthand knowledge would be

19 20 21 22 23 24 25

and identify it for me, or tell me what subject areas you have been designated to testify about? A. I have been designated to testify for 1.d, the

whatever I had reviewed for the reconciling of the funds. Q. And you previously testified that, even if --

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investment distribution and accounting part of 1.d, and then 1.g, the rates of return obtained section. Q. Okay. Thank you. Prior to any work you did

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11

although you may have seen documents relating to Osage trust, you have no independent recollection of actually having seen -A. Q. Right. -- any of those documents relating to the

in connection with this -- preparing for this deposition today, did you have any firsthand knowledge of investments, distributions, or accounting of Osage tribal trust funds during any of Tranche One period? A. It's possible that I could have reconciled

Osage Tribe, is that correct? A. Q. Right, right. Okay. And if you could tell me in your words

Osage investment transactions that covered the Tranche One later periods, the '80 periods, during my work with Arthur Andersen. Q. Okay. But that would have been, you would

what you understand 1.g, which I just read, to mean? A. What I understand 1.g to mean is the rates of

return is what rates of return were obtained on the funds back in those periods for the royalties that came in on the those tranches which are those relevant months. Q. Okay. Given that you had no firsthand

12 13 14 15 16 17 18

have looked at account statements and some other statement to reconcile? A. stuff. Q. any -A. Q. No. -- firsthand knowledge? Okay. What do you The MoneyMax to reconciliation or even the '72 It's possible that I covered that. Okay. But other than that, would you have

knowledge, other than the possibility of having looked at some of the documents during your time at Arthur Andersen, what did you do to educate yourself about these two topics, just generally? details with each one in a minute. did you go about educating yourself? A. I educated myself by reviewing the information We will get into But generally, how

19 20 21 22 23 24 25

understand the subject means to talk about the investment distribution and accounting -- and I'm reading from 1.d -- "Of all payments owed to the Osage Nation and made and/or received by the United States for royalties on crude oil and natural gas, including

that was provided to me in binders that was gathered for the periods of the relative -- excuse me -- relevant months.

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Q.

Okay.

Are these the three binders that were

A.

They take care of our field operations, all of

previously marked as Exhibits 6, 7, and 8? A. Q. Yes. I can show them to you, but I think we're all

our staff that work in the field. Q. A. Q. A. Okay. Yes. Okay. And why did you talk to her? Is she based here in Albuquerque?

talking about -A. Right. I recognize them as Volumes 1, 2, and

6 7

I wanted -- excuse me -- to gain an

understanding of how the overnighter calculation worked prior to the current overnighter calculation. Q. of that? A. Q. A. I'm sorry? What did she tell you? She told me mostly that she couldn't remember, And what was her, not familiarity or knowledge

Q.

Okay.

Other than reviewing the material in

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those binders, did you review -- did you look at any other documents to prepare for today's deposition? A. Q. No, not that I recall. Other than -- other than the government

attorneys in this case, did you talk to anyone to prepare to educate yourself about the 30(b)(6) topics? A. Q. A. Q. A. I talked to my staff. Okay. Who did you talk to in your staff?

but that she thought that the detail was held in a general ledger account. I was asking where the detail

of the transactions were held. Q. A. Uh-huh. I wanted to know how the system knew how much

I talked to Charlene Toledo and Brandon Fryar. What is Charlene Toledo's position? She's the division chief for trust funds

overnight interest to post. Q. Okay. And why would she have known that or

accounting. Q. A. Bureau. Q. A. Okay. Why did you talk to her? And how long has she been at the Bureau? Oh, I don't know how long she has been at the

why did you think that she would have known that? A. Because she worked in the tribal trust branch

during the time period that the overnighter calculation was running. Q. Okay. Do you know what time period?

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I just wanted to get a run-down, a verbal

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run-down of the annuity calculation, the current annuity calculation. Q. Did you talk to her about historical annuity

1 2 3 4 5

A.

I don't know the exact time period.

I just

knew that she was the predecessor branch chief. Q. Okay. And I don't know if I cut you off. But

calculations? A. Q. No. Okay. And what about Brandon Fryar? How do

she didn't recall? A. She didn't recall mostly anything. She just

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said that she thought that the detail was in a general ledger account. Q. Okay. Did you find any documents relating to

you spell Fryar, by the way? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. F-R-Y-A-R, and I asked him the same question. Okay. And again, just about current?

that general ledger account? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. No. Did you look for them? No. Did you ask anyone to look for them? No. Would you expect that kind of document to

Yeah, current. Not about historical? No. Current annuity calculation.

Did you talk to anyone who was involved in any

way with the actual investment activity of the Osage trust accounts during any of the Tranche One periods? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes. Who did you talk to? I talked to Sarah Yepa. And how do you spell that last name? Y-E-P-A. Okay. And who's she?

still exist? A. Q. Yes. Would that be generally an electronic form or

hand form or perhaps both, depending on how long it existed? A. Q. I don't know. Okay. Where would you expect that kind of

She currently works -- I don't know her

current title, but she currently works in field operations, here in OST. Q. Okay. And what does field operations mean?

document to be? A. Q. That I don't know. Is that the kind -- I don't know your

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procedures -- is that kept somewhere in the office's immediate files, or would it be sent to a repository of some sort? A. I would assume it would be in a repository

production months, and the red one to identify what I understood the annuity payout date. fact that I did essentially provide. MR. PILSK: Q. Okay, thank you. One other just sort of to lay Each of these So that would be a

4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12

since it would be a very old record. Q. Okay. Other than the three individuals you

(BY MR. PILSK)

the foundation in the background.

just identified, and again excluding attorneys, did you talk to anyone else to help prepare for the deposition? A. Q. Not that I recall. Okay. Did you talk with the attorneys

notebooks, Exhibits 6, 7 and 8, contain a table of contents. I understand that in the beginning of Exhibit

7, which is the Volume 2, that there were two documents that were added, inserted into the notebook immediately prior to the deposition on Tuesday. you. Let me hand them to

about -- in preparation for today's deposition? A. Q. Yes. Okay. I want to be very careful here. Did

Why don't we just, to make it simple, mark these

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as 7A and B? (Williams Exhibit 7A and 7B marked.) MR. LaLONDE: And just for your information,

they provide you additional factual information, other than what's in the notebooks, to help you prepare for today's deposition? A. exactly. Q. Well, what I mean, with witnesses before I guess I don't understand what that means

in case Jerry did not explain it to you, there were a couple of additions that would not appear in the table of contents, and something that was removed as well that I went over with Jerry. MR. PILSK: MR. LaLONDE: On the record? It was off the record. I can

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deposition, I will give them -A. Q. Uh-huh. -- advice and counsel on what's going to

tell you what it is again whenever you want me to. MR. PILSK: MR. LaLONDE: MR. PILSK: That's fine. I didn't have that information. I did want to clear up these two

happen at the deposition and generally how to conduct yourself as a witness. A. Uh-huh.

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Q. A. Q. lawsuit -A. Q.

I'm not asking about that. Okay. They may have given you background about the

1 2 3 4

documents just to identify them. MR. LaLONDE: Q. (BY MR. PILSK) Right. So let me hand you Exhibit 7 And ask you to just

and Exhibits 7A and 7B, okay. identify Exhibit 7A? A.

Uh-huh. -- and some of their strategic thinking about I'm not asking about that.

5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 I believe that it's in the 16 17

Exhibit 7A is a yield table for the generic

the lawsuit. A. Q.

three-month bill, three-month T-bill. Q. Is that a document that you referred to in

Okay. They may also, however, have given you factual

preparation for today's deposition? A. Q. Yes. Okay. And was it provided to you by counsel

information that was learned through discovery in this case, about whether this happened or that happened and how things were done or not done at a certain point in time, and I am asking, simply yes or no, whether they gave you factual information to help you prepare for today's deposition? A. binders. Q. Okay. MR. LaLONDE: And let me just, if I can add on Not that I recall.

in this case? A. Q. No. Okay. It was provided to me by me, my people. For which topic did you prepare that

document -- the 1.d or the 1.g? A. return? Q. 7B? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. 7B is a historical yield curve. And did you prepare that document? Yes, my people did. And for what topic was that prepared? The 1.g, the rates of return. Okay. Okay. Why don't we turn first to the Yes. Okay. And if you could just identify Oh, the 1.g, I believe. Is that the rates of

18 19 20 21 This is Volume 2 of 3? Volume 2 of 3 to try to 22 23 24 25

this, the tabs that are in the one binder, I did put those tabs in there. MR. PILSK: MR. LaLONDE:

identify, or at least the green and red ones, to try to identify the month of receipt for the relevant

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1.d topic, the investment -- I forget it myself -investment, distribution, and accounting, is that right? A. Q. A. Q. question. Right. Investment, distribution of the payments. Uh-huh. Let me back up and ask you another general Did you read everything in the three, in

A. Q.

Exhibit 7. And we are now looking at the tab that says

fiscal year 1976, and you could turn to the -A. Q. Yes. -- first page of that exhibit or that behind

fiscal year '7