Free Motion for Leave to File - District Court of Federal Claims - federal

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0001 1 2 3 No. 00-169 L Judge Emily C. Hewitt 4 THE OSAGE NATION AND/OR TRIBE OF 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF MARGARET WILLIAMS August 16, 2005 8:30 AM 16 4400 Masthead, Northeast Albuquerque, New Mexico 17 18 19 20 PURSUANT TO THE FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE, this deposition was: 21 22 TAKEN BY: MR. JERRY ROTHROCK ATTORNEY FOR PLAINTIFF 23 24 REPORTED BY: CATHERINE LEON, CCR No. 71 Kathy Townsend Court Reporters 25 110 Twelfth Street, Northwest Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102 24 25 21 22 23 VOLUME 1 17 18 19 20 14 15 16 11 12 13 EXHIBITS 6-8 RETAINED BY COUNSEL 9. Policy Manual 103 vs. THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Defendant. INDIANS OF OKLAHOMA, Plaintiff, 7 8 9 10 8. 6. 7. Binder Volume 1, Pleadings/Depositions Binder Volume 2, Statements/Overnighter Rates Binder Volume 3 21 22 21 4 5 6 3. 4. 5. Witness' List of Guidelines, etc. Interagency Procedures Handbook Position Descriptions 18 19 20 IN THE UNITED STATES COURT OF FEDERAL CLAIMS E X H I B I T S 1. 2. Notice of Deposition 30(B)(6) Notice of Deposition PAGE 11 13

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 VIDEOGRAPHER: 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MARGARET WILLIAMS For the Plaintiff:

A P P E A R A N C E S 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 Legal Action Video Fran Hindsley, CLVS 7008 Conestoga, Northwest Albuquerque, New Mexico I N D E X PAGE Direct Examination by Mr. Rothrock CERTIFICATE OF COMPLETION OF DEPOSITION DEPONENT SIGNATURE/CORRECTION PAGE 5 148 151 25 Solicitor, Department of Interior. 22 23 24 MS. BRANDON: Elisabeth Brandon, Office of the Solicitor, Department of the Interior. MR. SIMPSON: Stephen Simpson, Office of the 87120 20 21 Justice. MR. WEBB: Kevin Webb, Department of Justice. 19 Justice. MR. BURTON: Brett Burton, Department of VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the videotaped AKIN, GUMP, STRAUSS, HAUER & FELD Attorneys at Law 1333 New Hampshire Avenue, Northwest Robert S. Strauss Building Washington, D.C. By: 20036-1564 MR. JERRY ROTHROCK MS. STACEY M. KEITH For the Defendant: U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE Environment & Natural Resources Division 601 D Street, Northwest Washington, D.C. By: 20004 Reporting. Court videographer Fran Hindsley from Legal Action Video. For the purposes of the video record, will the attorneys present and by phone identify themselves? MR. ROTHROCK: Osage Nation. MS. KEITH: Stacey Keith, the Osage Nation. Martin LaLonde, Department of Jerry Rothrock representing the MR. MARTIN J. LaLONDE MR. BRETT D. BURTON MR. KEVIN WEBB DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR OFFICE OF THE SOLICITOR DIVISION OF INDIAN AFFAIRS 1849 C Street, Northwest MS 6456 Washington, D.C. By: 20240 MS. ELISABETH C. BRANDON MR. STEPHEN SIMPSON (BY TELEPHONE) MS. KAREN LINDQUIST (BY TELEPHONE) Masthead, Northeast, Albuquerque, New Mexico. reporter is Catherine Leon from Townsend Court Court States Court of Federal Claims. We are recording at the Osage Nation and/or Tribe of the -- of Indians of Oklahoma, plaintiff, versus the United States of America, defendant, case number 00-169 L in the United

deposition of Margaret Williams in the matter of the

Office of Special Trustee for American Indians, 4400

MR. LALONDE:

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 time? A.

MS. LINDQUIST:

Karen Lindquist, Department of

Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. you know? A. Q. A. Q.

And tell us again what that title is? Deputy special trustee for trust services. Who do you report to in your current position? Donna Erwin. What is her position? Principal deputy special trustee. Do you know how Ms. Erwin spells her name? E-R-W-I-N. Who does Ms. Erwin report to? Ross Swimmer, the special trustee. Could you spell Mr. Swimmer's name, please, if

Interior, Office of Solicitor. VIDEOGRAPHER: The date is August 16th, 2005, We are now on the

the time 8:34 a.m. Mountain time. record. witness?

Could the court reporter please swear in the

MARGARET WILLIAMS after having been first duly sworn under oath, was questioned and testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. ROTHROCK: Q. Good morning. My name is Jerry Rothrock. I

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am an attorney that represents the Osage Nation. you please state your name for the record? A. Q. Margaret Williams.

Would

Last name? Yes. S-W-I-M-M-E-R. Ms. Williams, where were you employed prior to

Ms. Williams, could you also give us your

business address? A. Q. 4400 Masthead, Albuquerque, New Mexico, 87109. And where are you employed at the present

your current position? A. Prior to the current position of deputy

special trustee? Q. A. Yes. Here at the office of the special trustee for I was the deputy director for the

Department of the Interior, Office of the

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Special Trustee for American Indians. Q. A. Q. And what is your job title with them? Deputy special trustee for trust services. Ms. Williams, any time you'd like to take a

American Indians.

office of trust funds management. Q. And is that office sometimes referred to as

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break today, would you just speak up? to accommodate you.

We will be glad

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A. Q. A. Q. A.

Yes. How long did you have that position? I had that position for approximately a year. Did you have a job before that? Yes. I was the division chief for the

Second, during the deposition, is

it okay if I refer to you as Ms. Williams, or would you prefer I use a different form of address? A. Q. Ms. Williams is fine. Third, I understand from talking with your

division of trust funds accounting within the office of trust funds management. Q. A. How long did you hold that position? I held that position -- I am going to go years

counsel that you have some time constraints on you today, and we have agreed to make it possible for you to meet your other time constraints. Could you just tell us again though when you need to depart this room so you can meet your other obligation? A. Q. A. Q. title. I need to leave this room at 3:00. We will plan the deposition with that in mind. Thank you. Ms. Williams, you have told us your current Could you tell us how long you have worked in

now if that is okay. Q. A. Q. A. Q. chief? A. Yes. I was the branch chief for the branch of Approximation is just fine. I had that since 1995, so 1995 till then. Approximately 2002, if I did the math right? Uh-huh, yes. Were you employed prior to 1995 as division

that position? A. position? Q. A. Q. time? A. Yes. Yes, the one you are in right now. Since April of 2003. And have you had the same title the whole I have worked in the position -- oh, in this

investment accounting, which was within the division of trust funds accounting. Q. And approximately how many years did you hold

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that position? A. Q. A. reporting. About a year. What did you do prior to that position? I was a staff accountant within the branch of

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Q. A.

And is that branch of reporting part of what? I believe it was in a different division in I don't think it

Q. A.

What was your degree in? I finished with a degree -- it was called a --

the office of trust funds management.

well, a degree in -- a bachelor's in business administration with a concentration in finance and accounting is the way it was termed. Q. And what was the name of the other university

was in trust funds accounting, and I don't recall the name of the division. Q. A. Sure. What did you do before that position?

I was a staff accountant in the branch of

you attended? A. Q. Harvard. Ms. Williams, I am going to hand you a

investment accounting, and that was within the division of trust funds accounting. Q. A. Q. That is also in the office of trust funds? Yes. If you recall, approximately how long did you

document which has been marked by the reporter for identification as Plaintiff's Exhibit 1. take a moment and look at that document. My question is, do you recognize this document? (Exhibit 1 marked.) A. Q. A. subpoena. Q. Ms. Williams, do you recall approximately when Yes. Could you tell us what this document is? This is the notice of deposition and the I want you to

hold the last two positions you described for us here? A. Q. Approximately three years. Now is that together, the two positions you

A. Q. A.

Right.

Correct.

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What did you do prior to that? I was in the private sector auditing for a

public accounting firm. Q. Can you tell us the name of the public

you first saw this document? A. Q. I believe it was a couple weeks ago. Ms. Williams, if you will flip over a few

contracting firm? A. Q. Arthur Andersen and Company. Do you recall the years you worked for Arthur

pages, you will come to the subpoena you mentioned, and then after that, there is an Exhibit A, which has some

Andersen, approximately?

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A. Q.

'90 to '92. What was your job title when you started work

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definitions in it, and after the definitions, there is a section labeled, topics to be covered. The bottom of

at Arthur Andersen? A. I believe it would have been called just a

that page says 4, has the number 4 on it. Have you found that? A. Q. I believe so. That section lists topics to be covered at the Are you appearing here today to

staff accountant. Q. Andersen? A. Q. No. Could you tell us if you were employed prior Did you have any other positions at AA, Arthur

deposition today.

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discuss one or more of the topics in this section? A. Q. Yes. The topics in this section have been numbered.

to working at Arthur Andersen? A. Employment before -- before Arthur Andersen

Could you please tell us the numbers of the topics you are going to be discussing here today? A. Q. 1d, and 1g. There are no other topics you are going to

was college, and before that was restaurants, you know, stuff like that. Q. We are going to save those for your

autobiography. A. Q. A. through. Q. A. Could you tell us where you attended college? I attended two universities, finished at the I was going to say, oh, my God. I am sure it is coming out soon. That is going to be tough if we are running

discuss here today under this? A. No. MR. BURTON: clarification as well. MR. ROTHROCK: MR. LALONDE: Sure. Under 1d, Ms. Williams focuses If I could just make a point of

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on the -- there is a whole list of items -- is the investment and accounting of all payments. MR. ROTHROCK: just say that again? MR. LALONDE: Under 1d, there is a list of I'm sorry, Martin, would you

University of New Mexico. Q. Mexico? A. In 1990. When did you graduate from University of New

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receipt, collection, handling, deposit, investment, distribution and accounting of all payments from the leases. Ms. Williams is designated specifically for

Q. A.

Right. I also recall being told that a payment would I don't recall seeing a payment or a copy

come through.

investment and accounting of all payments. MR. ROTHROCK: B? MR. LALONDE: Q. Correct. That is correct. And not for the other topics in

of a payment come through. MR. ROTHROCK: moment. VIDEOGRAPHER: the record at 8:49 a.m. (Discussion held off the record.) VIDEOGRAPHER: 8:52. Q. (BY MR. ROTHROCK) Ms. Williams, during the We are back on the record at We are temporarily going off Let's go off the record for a

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(BY MR. ROTHROCK)

Ms. Williams, I am handing

you a document that the reporter has marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 2 for identification. I want you to

take a moment and look at that document and tell me if you can identify it. (Exhibit 2 marked.) A. Q. A. Yes. Can you tell us what that is? It is a payment. I have seen a -- I have seen

off-the-record break, you were given an opportunity to look at what's been marked for identification as Plaintiff's Exhibit 2. Having had a chance to review

the document, can you tell me whether you have seen Plaintiff's Exhibit 2 before or not? A. Q. Yes, I have. Do you recall approximately when you first saw

copy of it. Q. answer. A. I'm sorry. It is a payment. I have seen a I I'm sorry, Ms. Williams, I didn't hear your

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Plaintiff's Exhibit 2? A. I have seen it over the -- it came in

copy of it.

I mean -- I'm sorry.

It is a payment.

remember hearing people talk about it. seeing this.

I don't remember

approximately sometime over the last two weeks through the materials that I have been going through. Q. Can you identify Plaintiff's 2 for us? What

I just remember people referring to --

that it would be coming around. Q. Ms. Williams, when you were referring to this,

is this, if you know?

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you were holding up what I believe is the last page of Plaintiff's Exhibit 2? A. Q. Yeah, the last page of it. I'm sorry.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 are?

A.

It is the notice of deposition for the fact

deposition. Q. Ms. Williams, referring you back now to

Just so I understand your testimony, are you

Plaintiff's Exhibit 1, have you brought any documents with you today to the deposition in response to the subpoena attached to Plaintiff's 1? A. Q. Yes, yes, I have. Could you tell us briefly what those documents

saying you have never seen that page before? A. No, not this page. I don't recall seeing this

page before. Q. What about the other pages of this Plaintiff's

Exhibit 2 that appear ahead of that, have you seen those before? A. If I have seen these pages before

A.

I brought with me a list of the guidelines and I

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manuals that I use in my performance of duties. brought with me an excerpt from the interagency

specifically, they looked like the other pages to me, and I didn't pick them out as different from, you know, the other notices. Q. But you do recall seeing, except for the last

procedures handbook between the Bureau of Indian Affairs and the Office of the Special Trustee for American Indians. The excerpt is the section of the handbook

page which you have mentioned, you do recall seeing -A. Q. A. notices. Q. A. Right. If this notice is different than the other Right. I do recall seeing --

that pertains to tribal accounts, which would be the part that pertains to the Osage Nation. I brought with me a copy of my PDs for the positions that I have held, and I brought with me the materials that I have been going over over the last couple weeks to prepare for the deposition, three volumes. One is down here on the floor. MR. LALONDE: I'd like to just clarify, and

-- the rest of Plaintiff's Exhibit 2? I am not saying this right. I recall seeing

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notices, I don't know that. Q. A. Right. I just recall seeing notices.

this is an important point as we, I guess, progress today as well that we want to make sure that the fact

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deposition component of what we are doing is distinct from the 30(B)(6) component of what we are doing. Obviously, on the 30(B)(6), Ms. Williams is speaking on behalf of the Interior. The fact portion, she is

guidelines, manuals, anything that I use to do my job that may impact the Osage Nation, or at least that is the way I interpreted the notice of deposition and subpoena. So I listed on this page anything that I

speaking from her own personal knowledge and experience, and the reason I am bringing it up now is I think that Ms. Williams just explained documents that we have had her bring for the fact deposition, which were the first items that she explained, and items that she has been using that she was provided with to prepare for the 30(B)(6). I just wanted to make sure that we keep these

thought might be responsive. Q. Ms. Williams, I am asking you now to look at

what the reporter has marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 4, and please tell us which of the documents you previously discussed this one is. (Exhibit 4 marked.) A. This is an excerpt from the Interagency This is a handbook that the Bureau

two things as distinct as possible, so if we could clarify. MR. ROTHROCK: I will be glad to do that.

Procedures Handbook.

of Indian Affairs and the Office of the Special Trustee uses to do our jobs. It is a guide book as to

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When we mark the exhibits, we can let her testify as to why she brought it. MR. LALONDE: Q. Right. Ms. Williams, referring you

responsibilities in terms of duties with regard to the trust funds. Most of the book pertains to individual

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Indian money, so I just copied out of the book the chapter, the section that pertained to tribal funds, and that is what this is. Q. Thank you, and I am handing you now what the Please

(BY MR. ROTHROCK)

now to Plaintiff's Exhibit 2, my question is, have you brought with you today to the deposition any documents in response to the subpoena attached to Plaintiff's 2? A. Yes. I have brought -- I have brought this

reporter has marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 5.

tell us which of the documents you previously discussed this one is. (Exhibit 5 marked.) A. The notice -- the notices of deposition. The

list of documents and manuals that I use on a day-to-day basis, the excerpt from the interagency procedures handbook that pertains to tribal funds and my PDs.

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Q.

Those are the same documents you described a

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subpoenas asked for documents that would describe previous jobs held, current jobs held, the duties, and what these are are the position descriptions for all the positions that I have held with the Department of the Interior, including my current position. Q. Ms. Williams, I believe you have also

little earlier, right? A. Right. MR. ROTHROCK: just a moment. VIDEOGRAPHER: We are temporarily going off So let's go off the record for

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the record at 8 -- I'm sorry, 8:57. (Discussion held off the record.) VIDEOGRAPHER: 9:18 a.m. Q. (BY MR. ROTHROCK) Ms. Williams, you We are back on the record at

testified that you brought three notebooks of documents with you in response to the subpoenas, is that correct? A. Correct. MR. ROTHROCK: We are going to go off the

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record for just a moment to give the reporter an opportunity to mark those. MR. LALONDE: Should I use Margaret's copy? I

previously described some documents that you brought with you in response to the subpoenas. During the

off-the-record break, we have marked some of those documents, and it would be helpful if you could just briefly identify which is which. I am handing you now what's been marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 3. Could you identify which of the

have an extra copy for the court reporter. MR. ROTHROCK: VIDEOGRAPHER: the record at 9:21 a.m. (Discussion held off the record.) VIDEOGRAPHER: 9:24. Q. (BY MR. ROTHROCK) Ms. Williams, would you We are back on the record at Whatever is easiest. We are temporarily going off

documents Plaintiff's Exhibit 3 is? (Exhibit 3 marked.) A. This is a list of documents or procedures

manuals or, for instance, in the case of the number 1 item, the United States Code, that I use to do my job, my -- perform my duties on a day-to-day basis. The subpoenas listed in a very broad way the

please look at what the reporter has marked for identification as Plaintiff's Exhibit 6 and tell us if you can identify that document -- that notebook? (Exhibit 6 marked.)

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A.

Yes.

This is one of the notebooks that I have

have been reviewing. Q. A. Q. And that also has a table of contents? Yes. It looks like there are 41 items listed in

been reviewing. Q. correct? A. Q. Yes. It lists five items in the table of contents And this has a table of contents, is that

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that table of contents? A. Q. Yes. And I believe your counsel has added some

under pleadings and two under depositions? A. Q. Yes. Would you please look at what the reporter has

material to the front of that notebook also that is not on the table of contents, is that correct? A. Q. Correct. It looks like there is three documents there.

marked for identification as Plaintiff's 7 and tell us if you can identify that? (Exhibit 7 marked.) A. Yes. It is another -- thank you.

Could you just briefly read the title of each document so we can know what these were? A. There is a three-page document titled, Tribal There is a memorandum dated

another binder that I have been reviewing. Q. contents? A. Q. Yes. I don't believe those -- there is numbers in And does that binder also have a table of

Overnight Investment.

December 16th, 1991, that is three pages, the subject of which is tribal overnight interest from the period July 1st, 1986, to December 31st, 1986, and then there is a third document. It is an eight-page document titled,

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the table of contents, but it looks like there is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 statements, and then something called overnighter rates, is that correct? A. Q. Correct. Correct.

Office of Trust Funds Management, Investment of Indian Trust Funds, Fiscal Year, 1990. MR. ROTHROCK: Thank you very much. Can we go

Then in the front cover of that notebook, I

off the record for a moment again? VIDEOGRAPHER: the record at 9:29 a.m. We are temporarily going off

believe your counsel has added a couple documents that aren't on the index. Do you find that material?

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A. Q. there? A. Q.

Yes. Could you just tell us how many documents are

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(Discussion held off the record.) VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record at

Two additional documents. And could you just briefly describe each of

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MR. LALONDE:

The point of clarification, then

I am going to describe some additional document issue. The three binders, Exhibits 6, 7 and 8, specifically relate to the 30(B)(6) deposition. They were compiled

those documents? A. They are two additional documents reflecting

historical rates. Q. Table? A. Yes. One is titled Historical Yield Curve, And I believe one of them is titled, Yield

to prepare the witness to address two topics that she is addressing as part of the 30(B)(6) deposition. not related to her fact deposition. Now, with respect to documents produced with -- for the fact deposition, defendants produced either one or two CDs, and I believe it was early last week, but certainly within the last two weeks, of items that had been imaged here at the OST within the past couple months. Unfortunately, I am not going to be able to It is

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and one is titled Yield Table. Q. And the one titled Yield Table, that appears

to be three pages? A. Q. Yes. And the other document isn't numbered

consecutively, but it appears to have about 11 pages in it, is that correct, or 12? A. Q. 12 pages. Ms. Williams, would you please look at what

give you in-depth exactly what those CDs contain either, but they contained documents from -- what is Doug Lord's operation. THE WITNESS: MR. LALONDE: Field operations. The field operations They would be

the reporter has marked for identification as Plaintiff's Exhibit 8 and tell us if you can identify that? (Exhibit 8 marked.) A. Yes. This is volume 3 of the binders that I

specifically related to the Osage Tribe.

relatively current documents involving investments of Osage Tribe funds, communications with the tribe and other materials, and we also produced separately under a

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different volume, I believe, documents that came from the main OST offices, and they would include such items as desk operating procedures, which I believe is one of the items that is listed in Exhibit -- what was that -3. Our proposal just on Exhibit 3 as well is that you can review these documents. We had Ms. Williams

investment of any of the funds that were received from the tranche one leases for the tranche one months in terms of an investment or accounting activity? A. Q. No. Do you know anybody at the Department of

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Interior that would have personal knowledge of how those funds were invested? A. Q. A. Q. That is currently employed? Correct, let's start with that. No. Do you know of any prior employees of the

list them rather than bringing her two shelves, you know, two book shelves full of the documents here. We

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can either arrange an inspection of those records, or we can label or note which ones you'd like a copy of. We

can see if we'd already provided you images on the CDs I have just described, and if not, we will be happy to provide you images of that. They are all single-page TIF images that we provided with basic coding date and the like. MR. ROTHROCK: clarification. Martin, thanks for the

Department of Interior that might have knowledge about that? A. Q. Yes. Could you give us the names of those

employees, or more correctly, former employees? A. It is my understanding that John Vale, Fred

My only question is, are the data on the

Kellerup would have knowledge of how funds were invested. Q. A. During the tranche one months? During the later tranche one months. I don't

disks being produced in response to the fact notice of deposition or the 30(B)(6) or both? MR. LALONDE: They are being produced for the

fact deposition, and the items that I mentioned from the field offices is not specifically related to Ms. Williams, but they were items from Office of Special Trustee. It is more -- the volume that would have

know about the earlier tranche one months. Q. Just to refresh your recollection, the tranche

one months are January, 1976, May, 1979, November, 1980, February, 1986, July, 1989 and October, 1990. I believe

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included desk operating procedures and the like are more specific to Ms. Williams' fact deposition. MR. ROTHROCK: Q. Thank you very much. Ms. Williams, at the

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you mentioned the name John Vale? A. Q. Uh-huh. Which of those six months do you think he

(BY MR. ROTHROCK)

might have knowledge about? A. Q. The 1980 dates. So that would be like November, 1980,

request of your counsel, I am going to ask you some questions first today about what we have been referring to as the fact notice of deposition, and then later, the second, 30(B)(6) notice of deposition. As I explained

February, '86? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Uh-huh. July, '89? Uh-huh. Those three months? Yes. Could you spell John Vale's last name, if you

in an e-mail to your counsel, the line between those two is not always as bright as some people might wish it to be, but that is the goal here. We are going to talk to So let

you first about one area and then a second area.

me start now with some questions about the first area. Are you familiar with the term tranche one months? A. Q. Is that phrase -Yes. Are you aware that those are six months that

know, please? A. Q. living? A. Q. A. Q. Vale? A. I really don't remember. It's been years, No. Are you personally acquainted with John Vale? I used to be. When is the last time you talked with Mr. V-A-L-E. Do you know where Mr. Vale is currently

have been designated in an order by the court for the first part of the resolution of the claims in this case? A. Q. Yes. Ms. Williams, if you need to refresh your

recollection as to what those six months are, we will be glad to do that, but I believe they start in January of 1976 and come forward through a month in 1991. My question is, were you involved in the

years since I last talked to him. Q. Ms. Williams, could you spell the name of the

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other person you mentioned as a prior employee who might have knowledge? A. Q. Fred Kellerup, K-E-L-L-E-R-U-P. Which of the six tranche one months might he

responsible for investing funds, do you mean by that that you have some supervisory responsibility over them? A. Q. Correct. Correct. They report to me.

Do both these people you just named, the

have knowledge of? A. I only know of -- he was on board when I came

director of Office of Trust Funds Management and the director of the Division of Trust Funds Investment report to you? A. The division chief of the division reports to

on board, so the only months that I could even be fairly sure of would be the 1990 time period. Q. A. Q. A. So that -Late '80, 1990 time period. So that would be October, 1990, for sure? Right. That is the only time that I would be

the director of OTFM. Q. A. Q. Right. Then that director reports to me. Are you involved in making decisions on how to

comfortable in saying. Q. Kellerup? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. When is the last time you talked to him? Couple months ago. That was before you got the notices of Are you personally acquainted with Fred

invest tribal trust funds? A. Q. A. No. Who has that responsibility? The investment manager that is assigned the

16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

specific account, the specific tribal account would make that decision. Q. Ms. Williams, is it your testimony that within

subpoena that you have identified as Exhibits 1 and 2? A. Q. A. Correct. Do you know where he is living at this time? No, other than -- I know he lives in

the Office of Trust Funds Management, there is an investment manager for each specific tribal account that makes the investment decisions? A. Correct, and could you step back and ask that

Albuquerque, but not specifically where in Albuquerque. Q. Or at least he was when you last talked to

question again, because I don't think that I completely answered it, who is in charge of making the investment

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him? A. Q. Right. He might have fled by now.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

decisions on the account. Q. A. Sure. It is a collaborative effort between the

Ms. Williams, are you involved in the process

of investing the Osage tribal trust funds at this time? A. Q. Yes. Could you tell us what your involvement in

investment manager, the fiduciary trust officer and the tribe itself, and the tribe will give us -- they will assign to us -- they will let us know who is in charge, who's been delegated by the tribe, the responsibility to let us know who the investment, the cash flows and, you know, the needs of the tribe. So it is a collaborative effort between those three entities, and then based on the information that comes out of that collaborative effort, that investment manager will make an investment decision. that. Sorry about

that process is? A. I am in charge of the office that is I am also in

responsible for investing the funds. charge of -- well, that is it.

I am in charge of the

office that is responsible for investing the funds. Q. I may be making you repeat yourself, but could

you tell us the name of that office again, please? A. Q. The Office of Trust Funds Management. Could you briefly describe what your

I was kind of thinking about the answer as you

went on to the next question. Q. That is fine. Any time you want to add some You don't

day-to-day duties are in terms of investing those funds? A. My day-to-day duties involve meeting with the

testimony to an answer, you are free do that. need my permission.

director of the Office of Trust Funds Management and meeting with the division chief for the Division of Trust Funds Investments just in terms of the activities that are going on within the shop. Q. And the Division of Trust Funds Investment is

I want you to answer whatever you

feel the appropriate answer is to a question, either too much or too little. I will let you decide that. We are going to go off the

MR. ROTHROCK:

record to answer the knock on the door. VIDEOGRAPHER: the record at 9:43 a.m. (Discussion held off the record.) We are temporarily going off

part of the Office of Trust Funds Management? A. Q. Yes. When you say you are in charge of the office

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9:53 a.m. Q.

VIDEOGRAPHER:

We are back on the record at

A.

We have had it in place -- the Department of

Interior has had it in place since 1998. Q. One part of that system gives you the total

(BY MR. ROTHROCK)

Ms. Williams, before the

3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

break, you were describing the investment process for tribal trust funds, and I take it your description applies to the Osage tribal trust funds? A. Q. Yes. Who is the investment manager for the Osage

amount of funds, tribal trust funds that are being held that are owned by the Osage Nation? A. Q. Correct. And that would be the maximum amount of funds

that you could invest at any one time for the Osage Nation? A. Q. Correct. Prior to the TFAS system, did you have a

tribal trust account at this time, if you know? A. Q. A. I believe it is Sonny Holladay. Could you spell that name for us, please? H-O-L-L-A-D-A-Y. MR. ROTHROCK: VIDEOGRAPHER: off, so we are there. Q. A. Could you spell the first name also, please? Sonny, S-O-N-N-Y, and it is probably not his We can go on the record. I didn't even have time to go

different accounting system in place that gave you that same information? A. Q. A. Q. Yes, we did. What was its name? The Omni system. Ms. Williams, let me jump back to TFAS for When you say that is our system, that is

legal name, but that is how I know it. Q. A. Q. Okay. And how long has he had that position?

just a moment.

the system that is maintained by the office of trust funds accounting? A. When you mean maintain, do you mean -- what do

I don't know. And do you know the name of the liaison person

that the Osage Nation has delegated to discuss these kinds of investments? A. Q. I don't know. Do you know if those discussions take place

you mean exactly? Q. Let me ask you a clearer question. Does the

office of trust fund accounting use the services of a third party to run the TFAS system?

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orally, over the phone? A. I know they have taken place over -- orally

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20

A. Q. A. Q. process? A. Q. A.

Yes, we do. Who is the third party that does that? SEI Investments. And what role did SEI Investments have in the

over the phone. Q. Do you know if any of those conversations are

written down? A. Q. I don't know. Do you know how the Office of Trust Funds

What role? Right. Do they maintain the software? They run it in They make

Management determines how much money the Osage Nation has available to invest on any given day? A. Currently, we look into our trust funds

They maintain the software.

what is called a service bureau environment. sure that the software is running. enhancements to the system. Q. A.

They keep -- they do

accounting system. Q. And when you say our, you are talking about

Do they provide any investment advice? They do not provide investment advice. They will do our They

the Office of Trust Funds Management? A. Q. Yes. And does that system have a name that you use

provide investment accounting.

settlements, but they do not provide advice. Q. Does SEI Investments have any other role in

to refer to it? A. We refer to it as the trust funds accounting

the process with TFAS? A. They provide custodial services as well for

system, which is the government acronym that has been applied to it. that? Q. No. That is exactly what I was looking for. Are you looking for something more than

the investments. Q. And could you tell us what it means to provide

21 22 23 24 25

custodial services for investments? A. They safekeep the investments when we buy

The acronym is sometimes TFAS, T-F-A-S? A. Q. know? Correct. Correct.

them, and they insure that when coupon payments pay, when maturities -- when securities mature, that the funds are delivered on time to us. We don't have to

How long has that system been in place, if you

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worry about that.

We also don't have to worry about They provide that service

people who have been provided user IDs are cleared through a security screening process in our security office. Q. Are these people employees of the federal

safekeeping and securities. for us. Q.

Are there any other services that SEI

4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11

Investments provides with respect to TFAS? A. They also provide computer output to laser

government, or do they include also non-employees of the federal government? A. They would include employees of the federal They could include contractors, federal

disk storage for our reports. Q. Ms. Williams, could you briefly describe the

government.

reports you are referring to in your last response, and are they monthly reports? reports? A. All of the above. We generate not only Weekly reports? Daily

government contractors, and they could include tribal employees doing work for the federal government through self determination compacts. Q. But in every case, before the person was

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

system-generated reports from the trust system, but any type of report that we generate, we used an SEI product to put the reports out and make them available for our field staff as well as BIA staff so that we don't have to run them off of printers or mail them or anything like that, and it is called a computer output to laser disk type of product. Q. Ms. Williams, I am reasonably sure you weren't

granted a user ID that would give them access, they have to go through this security screening process? A. Q. Screening process. That security screening process is conducted

by the Department of Interior itself? A. The details of the security screening process,

I don't feel comfortable talking about, because I am not in charge of that process. Q. All I am trying to find out is not the

brought here today to tell us your expertise in computers, but could you just give us a little more detail on computer output to laser diskg? I mean how

details, but whether it is done in-house or whether that is contracted out to some third party, if you know. A. Q. I don't know the answer to that. That is fine. You can speculate if you want.

would somebody in the field access a report, typically, if you know?

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A.

If they wanted to get to a report, they would There would be an icon

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11

I don't want to cut you off or deprive you saying what you want to say. A. It used to be done in-house, and I knew there I don't know I mean, I just

just get on to their computer. on their screen.

They'd click on that icon, then they'd

look up the report they would want. Q. A. Right. They would have the ability to just look at it They could append notes to it, either

was talk of possibly contracting it out. where it is at right now is the problem. don't know. Q. I am not involved in it.

on the screen.

As a government employee for some time, would

notes that they could see themselves or notes that they could put out there for the general population to see, and they could print it if they wanted it for their file. Q. So anybody who has access to this computer

you say it is a common occurrence for things to be contracted out, then not to be contracted out and possibly contracted out? A. Correct. All I know is they show up with a

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

badge when they ask the questions. Q. That is something that could change with the

system can get access? A. Right. And it would be driven by their user

time period, is the point? A. Q. A. Q. Correct. As for today, your answer is you are not sure? I am not sure. Ms. Williams, do you know if anyone at the

ID with what they would be able to see. Q. Besides the government employees who are

involved in this process and their supervisors, does anybody else have access to that computer system? A. Q. question. A. Q. A. Could you repeat the question? Sure. I will try to ask you a simpler

Osage Nation is currently authorized to access the system? A. Q. I don't know. Do you know if anyone from the Osage Nation

Who has access to this system? To the accounting system? Right. The people who have access to the accounting

has been authorized to access this system at any time in the past that you have been here? A. I don't know.

system are people who have been provided user IDs. The

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Q.

I mean other than asking people at the Osage

A. Q.

The full faith and credit, correct. You don't recall having any arguments with any

Nation that question, is there an easy way to determine that from the government records? A. I am sure that is something that could be

tribes as to whether or not a particular investment was backed by the full faith and credit of the United States or not? A. Q. I don't recall arguments, no. You also mentioned you had a solicitor's

determined. Q. Maybe there is somewhere that has the name of

everybody who is authorized to access the system? A. Right. The security process on the trust

opinion that had approved as investment vehicles certain agency securities. By agency securities, are you

funds accounting system, the one that we operate on currently, has a history of who has ever been granted access to it. Q. That could be determined.

referring to agencies of the United States or of states? A. Of agencies, I mean of the United States, and And

So it is not just currently authorized users,

I mean such as Ginnie Mae, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac. what the solicitor's opinion allowed was, you know,

it would be those that were authorized in the past at any time? A. Q. Correct. Ms. Williams, again, we are focusing on

agency by agency, can you invest this, this or can you not. Q. Right. But those investments would also be

15 16 17 18

current time frames and how things are being done right now. A. Q. Okay. Do you know what investments are available to

subject to your investment policy? A. Yes. Yes. They would be subject to the

19 20 21 22

investment policy as well as, that is correct. Q. on that? A. Q. general? A. The agency as a whole, if they issued No. Just whether or not these were available in The solicitor wasn't trying to give any advice

Mr. Holladay when he decides that some fund should be invested? A. Currently, we are limited to investments that We also have a

23 24 25

would be available under 25 USC 162(A).

solicitor's opinion that has listed some agency

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securities that we are allowed to invest in in addition to Treasury securities. In addition to that, we have an investment policy that has determined that there are -- within that environment, there are certain maturities that we feel are not appropriate for the trust funds in terms of length, and there are certain types of agencies in terms of derivatives that we feel are not appropriate for the trust funds. Q. Within those parameters, Sonny invests.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14

something, could you invest in it. Q. Did you include the solicitor's opinion in the

materials you have produced today? A. Yes. I believe I saw it in the binders. It

is also in the desk operating procedures. MR. LALONDE: Which is in one of the disks,

and I know that this particular opinion has already been produced to you as well separately. We initially

withheld it as privileged, and it is one of the documents that, upon further review, we provided to you. So you should have multiple copies of it. MR. ROTHROCK: appreciated. MR. LALONDE: Whether you can find any of the Your optimism is very much

If I really wanted to torture you, I'd ask you

to define derivative at this point. A. I appreciate it. MR. LALONDE: it would torture her. Q. Ms. Williams, let's start with 162(A). Is it That might torture us more than

15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

multiple copies, I won't comment about. MR. ROTHROCK: Thank you. That is

your testimony that the allowable investments under that statutory provision are basically Treasury securities? A. Government securities, Treasury securities and

appreciated, too, probably even more appreciated. Q. (BY MR. ROTHROCK) Ms. Williams, do you recall

government securities backed by the full faith and credit of the United States. Q. I take it there's never been a dispute within

approximately when the solicitor's opinion was issued? A. Q. A. I want to say 1960 something. Goes back awhile? Yes. MR. LALONDE: clarification. MR. ROTHROCK: Sure. If I could put a point of

your agency as to what those securities are? A. Q. No. You'd say there is pretty general agreement as

to what falls in that category?

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MR. LALONDE:

The one that I know we have

made approximately a year ago? A. The biggest change was more to allow -- it was We were

produced is from a later era. MR. ROTHROCK: MR. LALONDE: the late '80s. THE WITNESS: Then I could be wrong. I take What? From a later era, sometime in

the makeup of a portfolio review committee. looking at doing some expansion. clean-up of the policy.

We were doing some

Every time we added a broker,

6 7

we had to revise the policy, and we didn't want to have to do that, so it was more of a reorganization of how the policy was built. Q. A. Any other changes in this at that time? I believe we changed the bond rating. I

MR. ROTHROCK:

Or there could be two. Just from memory now,

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(BY MR. ROTHROCK)

again, this is not a memory test, but if you recall this, you mentioned Ginnie Mae and Fannie Mae. Do you

believe we changed it from BAA to AAA.

It wasn't a real

recall any other federal agencies that were approved as investment vehicles by this solicitor's opinion or opinions, whatever it is? A. The only one that is jumping into my memory

significant change in terms of we didn't have to make any asset allocation changes or any changes to the assets. It was a change that we just wanted to make in I think it is because we have it covered up

the policy.

off that list was Tennessee Valley Authority. Q. A. Sometimes referred to as TVA? Correct. It was quite a list though, and I

with this thing. MR. LALONDE: Every once in awhile, somebody That is your job, Stacey. If I understand your

has to get up and stretch. Q. (BY MR. ROTHROCK)

just don't recall the other ones on the list. Q. A. Q. Right. Right. You also mentioned in your answer an If you know, what is the earliest Whatever it is, it is in the opinion?

answer, Ms. Williams, under the old policy, you could invest in bonds rated BAA, and under the new policy, they had to be rated at least AAA before you could invest, is that correct? A. Something like that. We increased the rating

investment policy.

time that such an investment policy was established by the Department of Interior for investment of tribal

of the bond.

Don't hold me to exactly the rating,

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trust funds? A. Q. I don't know. Has there been an investment policy for the

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but -Q. Was there some specific reason why you made

the change at that time? A. Not that I can recall. Not that I can recall.

entire time you have been employed with the Department of Interior working within this area? A. Q. I don't know the answer to that. You don't recall a time when there wasn't an

Nothing stands out. Q. In the time you have been responsible for the

investment policy, have there been other revisions other than one you mentioned about one year ago? A. Q. Not that I recall, no. Is the current version of the bond policy,

investment policy? A. to that. I don't know that -- I don't know the answer I mean it wasn't -- I wasn't in a place where

I would have known whether there was an investment policy or not. Q. Sure.

investment policy written down? A. Q. Yes. Is that included in the materials you have

for formulating the investment policy? A. Q. A. Right now? Yes. I am responsible for formulating the That is one of my duties listed in

provided here today? A. Q. It is on the list in the investment DOP, yes. Approximately how long is that document that

sets forth the investment policy, if you know? A. Q. Six to ten pages long. You have testified that you are responsible Do you do that on your own,

investment policy.

the departmental manual is policy and procedure. Q. How often as a general matter do you revise

for the investment policy.

that investment policy? A. Throughout the year actually, we review it.

or do you consult with people? A. Q. A. I consult with people. Who would you consult with? I would consult with my director of OTFM. I

And as a matter of fact, we just revised it about a year ago. We don't generally revise it a lot. Q. What was the change in the policy that was

would consult with the division chief for trust funds

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investments.

I would consult with the principal deputy I would consult with or take it to the

A.

Yeah, I am sure.

The most efficient way is

special trustee.

the way I do it. Q. A. Q. A. Right. Admin. What would that be? I would go in the system, and I would go

special trustee, and this last investment policy change, the entire investment policy was taken to and approved by the special trustee's advisory board. Q. Well, when you say special trustee's advisory

board that almost defines itself, but I am going to ask you anyway. What is your understanding of what the

admin, BA, that is cash, what do you have in cash. Q. Now, does that show the cash that is available

special trustee's advisory board is? A. Under the Trust Fund's Management Reform Act

for investment, meaning it doesn't show you the cash that's already been invested? A. It doesn't show the cash that has already been

of 1994, the special trustee has an advisory board of people with various talents. They might -- they meet

invested in either a long-term security or the short-term fund. It would show literal cash, you know,

periodically, and during one of their meetings, this investment policy was reviewed and approved, the current version of the investment policy. Q. Was there some reason that you are aware of

sitting there available to go into the short-term fund or long-term securities, longer-term securities. Q. Would you go to a different screen to find out

that they -- this advisory board approved and -reviewed and approved this version of the policy and investment policy and didn't review and approve prior versions? A. versions. Q. Ms. Williams, what is the document that you'd I don't know that they didn't approve prior

today -- you go into the system, how much -- how many tribal trust funds for a particular tribe had already been invested? A. Q. Yes. Can you find that on a single screen, or do

21 22 23 24 25

you have to go to several screens, like one for the short-term fund? A. Q. You can find it on a single screen. How would you do that?

use to find out how much -- how much money the Osage Nation had available to invest on any given day? I

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understand you said it is in the TFAS system, but is there a specific document or some part of that system that you go to to find that information? A. question. I am going to ask you to clarify that If I were wanting to know like on a

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

A.

I would go log into TFAS and go to admin HO,

which is the holding screen. Q. I presume there are other screens where you

can get breakdowns of what those investments are? A. Q. Yes. Yes.

go-forward basis, like today, if I were operating, and I was coming in to do my job today and saying I want to know how much today, I would go in on line and look at a particular screen. screen? Q. A. Yeah. Versus trying to go back in time and look at That is a different Do you want to know the name of the

Would those two screens give you the total

amount that -- of tribal trust funds that the particular tribe owned on that particular day at that particular time? A. Q. Uh-huh. They are either in the cash, or they are in

11 12 13 14

the investment? A. Q. A. Uh-huh. The sum of the two is what they are owed? Uh-huh, and there is a screen that you can go The reason that I went to the

what they had on a particular day. screen. Q.

Let's start with the question that is If you today

15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

responsive to what you just suggested.

to to get them both.

wanted to find out how much -- how many funds in the Osage tribal trust account were actually there and available for investment, you would look that number up in the TFAS system? A. Yes, and let me also say that there are 1,000

admin holding screen is it gives you the detail of the holdings too, if you want, but if you just wanted a grand total of them all and didn't care about the detail, there is another screen you can go to for that. Q. Suppose you go to the admin HO screen, which

different ways to do it, so each person probably has their favorite little way to go in and do it. Q. What is your favorite way? I assume you

has the investment and the detail that you mentioned, can you also determine from that screen the amount of investment income that the funds are going to earn from that particular investment?

choose the easiest way?

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A.

It will have the coupon rate.

I don't

within those global reports is the Osage Nation, along with everybody else, and we distribute that among our shop, you know, to the appropriate people, depending on what the reports are revealing. Q. Ms. Williams, I realize the answer to this

remember if it shows an actual dollar projection of what it is going to pay. Q. A. Right. It will definitely show the coupon rate. I don't

will have all the terms of the security.

next question may vary report by report, but I am going to ask it anyway and see if you can respond. When you say you tend to get a report for tribal trust funds as a whole, would that report simply have aggregate numbers for all the tribal trust funds as a whole, or would it also have a breakdown as to which tribes owned those tribal trust funds? A. It will have a breakdown. What I mean by as a

know -- I can't remember if it actually shows a dollar amount of the projection. Q. Is there another screen you can go to that

would give you the dollar amount of the projected? A. I am sure there is. It is not a screen that I

go to all the time.

I'd have to fool around to hunt for

it, so I don't know it off the top of my head. Q. I assume all those screens are available to

whole is all my processes are looking at it as a whole, but if it finds -- and I am looking for anomalies, so if it finds an anomaly, it will report the anomaly specific. So if it found an anomaly for the Osage

Mr. Holladay when he gets ready to make a -A. Q. A. Q. Oh, yeah. -- new investment? Oh, yeah. Uh-huh.

Nation, it will say Osage Nation account number whatever has an anomaly. Go find it, but it is not going to come Here is a It is, you

Ms. Williams, are there regular reports

generated about the tribal trust funds for the Osage Tribe that are distributed daily, monthly, weekly to everybody who is interested in them or anybody who is interested in them? A. Q. Yes. Can you tell us what those reports are?

out and say everything is fine for Osage. report on Osage saying everything is fine.

know, running as a whole is what I am trying to get at. Q. A. Right. It is balancing everything as a whole, but If you were ever to go look into

yes, it has specifics.

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A.

Off the top of my head, no, but I would guess

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my database or go look into my giant unprinted reports, they are stored in cold, yes, there are specifics. can get to it. Q. up from -A. Q. A. Q. The detail. -- individual tribal trust accounts? Exactly. Whether or not you display the detail just The funds as a whole data is basically built You

there are cash reports, holding reports, and I would ask you to clarify, too. Are you asking me managementwise

in my daily duties, or from an account rep standpoint? From an investment standpoint? I mean it is a real kind

of broad question, and there is a whole bunch of reports generated, depending on your job. Q. Let me narrow it down. So let me just start

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with you since you are here today, and we don't expect you to know what -- precisely what everybody else in the agency is doing. What reports do you consult daily, weekly, monthly in performing your duties? A. I tend to run -- the kind of reports that I do

depends on the formatting of the report? A. Q. Exactly. But the data would be somewhere in the system

if you need to access it? A. Q. Exactly. Ms. Williams, let's talk a little bit about I

and that my shop runs daily are tribal trust funds as a whole reports, and Osage Nation accounts will be part of them. You know, we run anomaly reports, basically, did Did everything roll up

some of the things you described in your last answer. am going to start with the last one.

One of the reports

everything balance last night? the way it should have? the way it should have?

you apparently run is a cash reconciliation report, is that correct? A. Q. A. Q. Correct. Is that something you do daily? Yes. You describe that as a process where, if I

Did everything interface right

And then we run cash reconciliation reports with Treasury. Did everything that hit Treasury last And those are the kind of

night book into the system?

reports that my shop will run on a daily, monthly, weekly basis. Did we balance with the custodian? And

understood your answer, DOI is reconciling its records with the Department of Treasury records?

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A. Q.

Correct. And I think you said you wanted to make sure

Q.

By anomaly, do you mean a situation where the

two records don't agree in some respect? A. Q. Correct. Then I take it it is the job of someone in

that everything that hit Treasury hit your records? A. Q. A. Q. Uh-huh. Is that right? Correct. Now does that mean that if someone deposits

your facility to find out what the difference is and to bring the two into agreement? A. Q. A. Q. Correct. And that is done monthly? Correct. The second thing you mentioned was the The second new thing you mentioned was

something in the United States Treasury for the benefit of a specific tribal trust fund, you want to make sure that that same collection gets shown on your books? A. Q. Correct. Is there anything that is reconciled with

reconciliation.

the reconciliation of cash balances, and you said that was done monthly? A. Q. Correct. With Treasury. So I take it the process here

Treasury other than the cash, as you have described it? A. With Treasury, we reconcile if we have bought

a security with Treasury, and it is being held with Treasury, then we will reconcile our holdings with Treasury monthly. We also, in addition to reconciling

is you have a cash balance for a tribal trust fund on your record -A. Q. Uh-huh. -- records, Treasury has a balance of that

the cash activity with Treasury daily, reconcile the cash balances with Treasury monthly. Q. Ms. Williams, I want to follow up briefly on In addition

same tribal trust fund? A. Q. Uh-huh. And again, the reconciliation is to find out

those last couple descriptions you gave us.

to the daily reconciliation of cash with Treasury, you mentioned two other things, one was the holding of Treasury securities. So let me start with that.

if they agree or disagree? A. Q. Uh-huh. And if they disagree to try and bring them

Some of the investments you have testified can

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