-Case 1:98-cv-00126-JFM Document 792-11 Filed 04/16/2004 Page 1 of 22
I don 't know or remember.
Okay.
No. 9 is a document authored by
J. W. Doman,
D-o-m-a-n, and
T. E. Tehan, T-e- h-a-n.
Had you ever seen this document before this
litigation?
Again, no.
What is it?
It talks about the option and
characteristics of. a
spent fuel from the
campaigned approach to taking
reactors, and it'
s a "think
piece" on how you would do that most
We I re
effectively.
deposition,
about
going to talk a little bit more
about campaigns a little later in your
but I just want to ask you while we
I re talking
this document, are shipment campaigns or transportation campaigns anything that you worked on
while you were director of OCRWM?
It'
s something we recognized as an ideal
option of running the
system.
Did you actually do any work toward
No.
transportation campaigns?
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actually the mission plan , and so these things would
be there available as a basis for some action, but
they were not - documents.
I wouldn't call them working
So going back then to this document on campaign shipments, when did there come about more
information about shipment campaigns so that it was
more than just a good idea and it could actually be
analyzed?
After our watch.
Do you have any idea when?
No.
Were you involved in that at all in
your -No.
- - consul ting
work?
Have you ever done any work in your career
on shipment campaigns, transportation campaigns?
No.
Okay.
No. 10 is the 1987 annual capacity
report.
Uh- huh.
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In a sense, yes.
,.I
Yes.
They are not meant
to commi t anybody.
They were not a basis for It was just widely
program action or anything.
recognized that this would be a very inefficient way
of doing things, and it would be far better to have
a system where you, well, frankly, campaigned and
made effective use of the resources of the
system;
but , at
the time it was all very qualitative, you
know, how should this system run, because it was
very premature to even think about those ~etails
because we didh I
t
have an MRS.
We didn't know what
it was going to look like or what the reactor fleet
17)
was going to do.
So really while you were director, you
didn I t
know one way or the other whether the OFF
method was going to happen?
That I S right.
Did you do any studies or anything while you were director, or were you responsible for any
studies as to whether the OFF system would work?
Specific studies, no.
General studies?
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for your opinion as to the proper pace?
The proper pace is a dependent factor
depending , on what the
situation is, and as a matter
of fact, from the late, middle
'80s when they
started doing these studies like Wood I S, on through
to , this
day, the circumstance that existed at any
point in time has changed.
It I S been a constant
evolution of rate of production of spent fuel, the
ability of the, reactors to accommodate storage on site. So all you can do at any given time is make
assumptions and use the existing data at that point
in time as a basis for saying what would be
appropriate or proper to achieve your
goal.
So the proper pace changes with time?
The definition of proper depends on the
system - - or
given time.
the circumstance of the system at any
That' s right.
So when you offer your opinion as to the
proper pace in this report, what is that based upon?
What are the circumstances that you base that
opinion on?
MR. SHAPIRO:
Objection.
01032
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THE WITNESS:
The definition - -
or
explicitness of proper would depend on when you were
looking at the system, what the circumstances were.
BY MS. HERRMANN
And I I m trying to find ou t what the
circumstances were when you, nr. Bartlett, looked at
the system and decided that this was the proper
pace.
Proper pace would have gone with the
circumstances of the system while I was director,
but we did not investigate that to any detail
because, again, as I said, we could not
implement.
These kinds of issues were backburner all the way.,
Sure.
We had a shelf full of these theoretical
studies, if you will.
We had a changing dYnamic in
the. reactor system,
and we had no place and no way
to accept spent fuel, no place to take it and no
way - - so there I s no specific
20 '
proper as much as
there is an appropriate strategy to meet the goal of
servicing shutdown reactors and not forcing shutdown
of operating reactors.
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they'
, I
re discharging fuel at a rate of 2, 000 tons per
year for the fleet.
Some reactors, for one reason
or another; ar~ being forced into having dry storage
capability because their pools are
full.
What do' you mean by fleet?
All reactors in the United States.
I s ee.
Our inventory of reactors
operating
reactors.
So if the circumstances have changed since
you wrote th,is report, ' then
is the pace
that. you
12
~:~J
advocated in this report no longer the proper pace?
MR. SHAPIRO:
Objection.
Vague.
, BY MS. HERRMANN :
Do you understand what Il m asking?
I understand what you
I re asking.
You can
set
a goal of a rate, a pace of receipt and
implement it for the circumstance that
you face.
I understand that you can set a goal, but
can , you determine that one particular pace is the
right pace?
MR. SHAPIRO:
Objection.
Vague.
173
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BY MS. HERRMANN
J: I m
sorry.
The proper pace.
I want to
use your terminology.
A.
Uh- huh.
Do you understand my question?
You can determine for a circumstance what
, a proper pace would be.
But it wouldnlt be the only proper pace?
That I S right.
I see.
Okay.
So then how did ,
you go
abO1,1t ' choosing this particular pace as the proper
one that you would write about in this report?
That was the case or system of record at
that time that would be appropriate. At what time?
, 16
Early I 90s.
When you we~e director?
Uh'-huh.
And it was also consistent with
what appeared to be the feasibility of getting the
sys tem running.
, 21
So it'
s an event.
Okay.
But from what you'
re telling me
that there could be more than one proper pace, there
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Page 8 of 22
could have been other paces at that time when you
were director?
Could be.
That' s right.
And they would have been correct also?
Uh- huh.
Okay.
As you go through some of the
documentation for the past decade or so, you'll find
in different documents DOE has set different targets
for a ramp-up rate and a
pace.
They generally stuck
with 3, 000
as the ultimate fully implemented
system,
and the reason for that is that'
s. as fast
as you can
put it in a repository.
And so that' s a constraint
on the sys tem .
How fast you go from when you start
to 3, 000 is adjustable depending on system
need,
depending on your ability to produce the casks of
the system, et cetera.
You mentioned that DOE has had different
goals, set different targets -At different times in different documents
they'
ve assumed different ramp- up rates and
different start
rates.
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Page 9 of 22
CERTIFICATE OF SHORTHAND REPORTER - NOTARY PUBLIC
I, Virlana Kardash, Registered Professional Reporter and a
Notary Public in and for the DiStrict of Columbia, before
whom the foregoing proceedings were taken, do hereby certify
that the witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing
pages was duly sworn by me; that the testimony of said
wi tness was taken by me stenographically at the time and
place noted in the caption hereof and thereafter reduced to
computer- aided
transcription by me; that the foregoing
transcript is a true and correct record of the
proceedings;
and that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed
by any of the parties to this case and have no
financial or otherwise, in the outcome of the
interest,
action.
Virlana Kardash, RPR, CSR
Notary Public in and for The District of Columbia
f/ML
My commission expires:
June 30, 2006
01037
"'~""""" " -,""
,,
-IN THE U. S
.
, ', :, :\~~\) ~~ &,
Document 792-11 Filed 04/16/2004 Page 10 of 22
COURT OF FEDERAL CLAIMS
, "
Case 1:98-cv-00126-JFM
----------"--x
YANKEE ATOMIC ELECTRIC CO.
MAINE YANKEE ATOMIC POWER CO.
CONNECTICU'1' YANKEE ATOMIC POWER \)
CO.,
Plaintiffs:
vs.
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
: No. 98
-126C
98-474C 98-154C
Defendant.
, Washington ,
D. C.
Wednesday, August 27, 2003
Continued Deposition of:
DR . JOHN, BARTLETT
called for examination by counsel for the
defendant
pur suant
to notice and agreement
commencing at 9:30 a. m., at Department of Justice
1100 L Street N. W.,
before Virlana Kardash,
RPR,
CSR , a Notary Public in and for the District of
Columbia, when were present on behalf of the
respecti ve parties:
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Page 11 of 22
Okay.
And I'
I have a
looked
at all of
them.
for you,
couple questions
then.
So let me take them one at a
time.
No.
, are you saying
that the number 3, 000 MTU can be
accepted as the repository; does that number
change over time?
No, no.
Okay.
That number doesn't change
s the baseline parameter.
significantly. That'
assessment.
You mentioned the 198 viability
Is that now outdated, then?
Very much so.
Okay.
Totally.
Is the spent fuel storage document
that I s listed
here at No. 5 outdated?
Probably.
Is there any document that you relied
upon for your 3, 000
outdated?
MTU number that is not
MR. SHAPIRO:
THE WITNESS:
Obj ection.
Vague.
I don' t know.
315
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They come
and see me.
Did you ever
No.
send a letter?
Did you ever have any
,5
wri t ten
communication with the utilities to that effect?
On this issue?
Yes.
No.
Okay.
The utilities were typically
represented by the Nuclear Energy
Institute.
They
would come visit periodically, check on the status
of the program.
The utilities had an organization
called American Committee on RAD Waste Disposal,
composed of CEOs of major nuclear utilities.
I would meet with them periodically, tell
them the status of the programi so there was
understanding on their part constantly of where
the program stood and where the effort
stood.
Okay.
I . m back on page 8
now. The
very last sentence on that page is, "Given this
experience, the government should not and would
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Uh- huh.
That looks, to, me like a five- year
ramp-up.
That I s what it counts to, yes.
So here is my question.
On this page
you seem to be talking about a three- year ramp-up,
and on that page, you seem to be talking about a
five~year ramp-up.
Which ramp-up period are you expressing your
expert opinion that DOE should actually use?
MR. SHAPIRO:
THE WITNESS:
Mr .
Obj ection.
They I re
Vague.
both possible.
Graves chose that analysis; that'
s feasible, I
think.
BY MS. HERRMANN
So you' re not giving us an expert
opinion that one is more proper than the other?
No.
m just saying
that, it I S feasible
response, but
to do it in three years with market
you could choose something
different, like
Mr., Graves did.
Would it also be feasible to do it in
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seven years?
Certainly.
Or ten years or any other number?
Yes.
Did you expert opinion go any further
than that -No. '
as to choosing one?
No.
MR. SHAPIRO:
Obj ection.
Vague.
BY MS. HERRMANN
Okay.
" , 1,
You I re not advocating one
ramp-up -. A
No.
You understand my question; right?
Yes.
, 17
And the answer is
no.
:Is it your opinion that DOE is
obligated to ' any
given ramp-up?
MR. SHAPIRO: THE WITNESS:
Obj ection.
Vague.
No.
BY MS. HERRMANN
The standard contract doesn
I t require
a
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acceptance slots?
No.
We addressed it as a strategy for
the operation of the
system.
Have you ever talked to any CEO of any
utility who was interested 1n exchanging so that
they could get a later acceptance slot?
Not specifically on that subject, no.
Do you know whether any utilities have
ever attempted to exchange acceptance slots?
No.
When you were director of OCRWM, were
you confident that DOE
perfo~ance was predictable
Obj ection.
enough that - an exchange market could be viable?
MR. SHAPIRO:
Vague.
BY MS. HERRMANN
Do you understand my question?
I can't answer
that.
Conf i denc e ?
The short answer
There was too much uncertainty.
is no, but there are many factors in
that.
Okay.
little bit.
Let me explore those factors a
So there was uncertainty in when DOE'
would be performing?
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There still
is.
Okay.
all here.
I guess that' s kind of why we'
Was there also uncertainty as to when
the acceptance slots would happen?
MR. SHAPIRO:
THE WITNESS:
Objection.
Vague.
Tha tI
I don t know.
s at
a level I did not
address.
BY MS. HERRMANN:
So do you know, one way or the
other,
whether the utilities had something concrete they
could count on to exchange?
MR. SHAPIRO:
.-I
Objection.
Vague.
THE WITNESS:
I do not know.
BY MS. HERRMANN
Okay.
But you understand my question?
Yes, I understand the
not know.
question.
I do
Okay.
Did you analyze that as part
your report?
No.
Okay.
Do you know
of
any issues that
would make exchanges inefficient?
:'t~J!
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Okay.
In the exchange sys tem, as you
understand it,
first of all?
the exchange system that is
provided in the contract -- is that clear to you,
When I talk about exchanges as it
is provided in the contract, Il m talking about the
contracts provision on exchanges that we I ve talked
about.
Yes.
Yes.
On page 11 or whatever it
is.
Okay.
I don
I t want
to go further if
nobody is following me.
As you unders tand that
provision, would partial exchanges be allowed?
MR. SHAPIRO:
Obj ection.
Vague.
BY MS. HERRMANN
Let me explain myself.
:In other words,
say, would a utility be allowed to trade lO MTUs
of its 20 MTU allocation?
MR. SHAPIRO:
Obj ection.
Vague.
BY MS. HERRMANN
Do you
unders tand
my question?
don't know.
understand the
question.
don't know.
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Under your system of exchanges as you
, .I
advocate it should happen, would a utility be
allowed to have such a partial exchange?
,A
Yes.
Okay.
Under the exchange provision in do you know whether
the contract as it I s. written,
bilateral?
that I S all?
MR. SHAPIRO: THE WITNESS:
exchanges would be pair-wise; in other words,
One utility with one utility, and
~bj ection.
Vague.
I doni t know, and that I s
hard - -
I couldn't even guess.
BY MS. HERRMANN
And under your system of exchanges that
you present in your expert report, would all
16 '
utilities
, would all
exchanges be pair-wise,
just one utility and one utility?
Not necessarily.
So they could be between several
utilities?
Yes.
Do you know whether the contract allows
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, 1
know.
Okay.
Would the time that it took to
approve or disapprove exchanges affect the
incentive to trade?
MR. SHAPIRO:
Obj ection.
Vague.
THE WITNESS: ' I don't know.
BY MS. HERRMANN
If a utility had an approved delivery
commitment schedule, would you agree that it
wouldn I t
want to exchange away its early slot in
order -- if that would cause it to incur avoidable
~t:
12 '
storage costs?
MR. SHAPIRO:
THE WITNESS:
.z
Objection.
Again, I don
Vague.
I t
know.
You
cannot -- my experience is that the utilities are so different in the driving forces for their
economic and business decisions that there' s just
no way of knowing except when you get into a
specific case and they bring to the table at the
time whatever their situation
is.
It might be driven by their PUC, for
example.
Many, many factors that they will have
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to make the decision on a case- by-case basis as to
whether or not they want to exchange, what wpuld
be involved as far as they' re
concerned.
All these factors are just -- you can
identify factors, but you certainly cannot proj
ect
them or make any assumptions about how they would
be implemented by any given utility at any
, 8
time.
BY MS. HERRMANN
You just can
I t know
how things would
ul timately happen?
You cannot know.
You cannot know.
Is there any relationship between your
opinion about exchanges and your opinion about the
efficient acceptance schedule?
MR. SHAPIRO:
Obj ection.
Vague.
BY MS. HERRMANN
Do you understand my question?
It is my expectation that having the
opportunity for a free market exchange situation
will make the system as operationally cost
effective as possible.
Okay.
Giving you a hypothetical.
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no exchanges were allowed, if it just was not
allowed by DOE, how would that change your opinion
about what an efficient acceptance schedule is, if
at all?
No, it doesn't.
MR. SHAPIRO:
Obj ection.
Vague.
BY MS. ' HERRMANN :
It doesn
I t change
your opinion?
No.
MS. HERRMANN
All right. Let' s
take a
break.
(Recess. )
BY MS. HERRMANN
Dr. Bartlett, I tell you what.
It'
five minutes to 4: 00
right now.
I think that it
would make for a much shorter and more efficient
day tomorrow if we were to break right now for me
to go through and clean up my notes and see what
has been missed and what we still have to go on to
rather than continue.
I think we' d have to continue on to tomorrow
anyway.
If we break now, assuming it' s all the
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Page 22 of 22
CERTIFICATE OF SHORTHAND REPORTER - NOTARY PUBLIC
I, Virlana Kardash, Registered Professional Reporter and a
Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia, before
whom the foregoing proceedings were taken, do hereby certify
that the witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing
pages was duly sworn by me; that the testimony of said
wi tness was taken by me stenographically at the time and
place noted in the caption her~of and thereafter reduced to
computer- aided
transcription by me; that the foregoing
transcript is a true and correct record of the
proceedings;
and that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed
by any of the parties to this case and have no
financial or otherwise, in the outcome of the
interest,
action.
Virlana Kardash, RPR, CSR
Notary Public in and for The District of Columbia
My commission expires:
June 30, 2006
01049