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Document 792-10
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plant because there was no anticipation that there
\.J
would be spent fuel per
se.
It was to be
reprocessed, and you I d be disposing of radioactive
waste.
So at this point, waste management
~till meant reprocessing of fuel?
7- "
Oh, very definitely.
So why would there be a need for a
disposal facility, then?
.A
Well, the government had
authority,
under the Atomic Energy Act, for responsibility
for disposal of highly radioactive wastes, which is the radioactive material in spent
fuel. So the
idea was you were going to reprocess the spent
fuel, recover the uranium plutonium, and the
fission products ' were the waste.
The fission products would be vitrified,
made into a glass, and that was what was to be
disposed.
So part of your job in the Nuclear
Waste Management Program Office was to figure out
how to do that?
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Yes, to bring the system together.
Is Battelle sYnonymous with Pacific
Northwest Laboratories?
4.
Uh- huh.
Northwest when I was
It used to be Battelle
there.
times.,
When did they change?
They changed three
It started
as Battelle Northwest, then it became Pacific
Northwest Labs, and now it is Pacific Northwest
National Laboratory.
So it I S
PNNL, as consistency
throughout the DOE community.
So for clari ty, when
about the same company?
we refer to any of
those titles or to Battelle, we' re always talking
Yes.
Yes.
How long did you work in the Nuclear
Waste Management Program Office?
Until I left Battelle.
That was how long?
Five years.
Did you have other responsibilities
there at Battelle that we haven't discussed?
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Yes.
Okay.
All right.
Then moving on from
Between 1974
1974, when you went pack to Hanford. and 1978, what did you do?
I went back to the program office as
Manager, System Studies, and I led an effort to
prepare a five-volume doc~ment that we~t by the
name "The Technical Alternatives Document.
And
it was a compilation of every technology for every
action, that
could be taken in, nuclear ' waste
management.
And it involved personnel from every
nat ional lab.
, 14
So I was coordinating the
production of this massive
thing.
So the
expertise in one area might be at Sandia Labs, and
they would contribute those chapters.
And some was at Oakridge, and some was at
Savannah River, et
cetera. So we had,
essentially, a national team simply compiling
information and describing the technologies that
might be used for waste management and disposal.
Was that document published?
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Uh- huh.
Did you have any involvement in the
drafting of the Nuclear Waste Policy Act?
No.
No commenting or anything?
No.
We were consultant to the Nuclear
Energy Institute, but we were not involved in any
way with the form~l~tion of the ' act.
Congress ' to develop that act.
We
were very
much awar~ it was going on; it took six years fqr
But we had no involvement in it at
-c)
all.
When the act came out, was that
involved in any way in the work that you did at
, TASC? '
.15
No, not ' the act.
It was the Nuclear
Regulatory Commission regulations that were developed as a result of the act that became
important to our work.
How did those become important.
We provided technical support and
analyses.
We provided the bases for the
regulation.
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So essentially, you helped the NRC
promulgate those regulations?
Supported their ef fort.
What kind of technical support did you
gi ve them?
They had to do technical analyses as a
basis for what they would propose as
standards,
and we would do those kinds of analyses in terms
of the expected safety performance of the nuclear
waste repository, things, of this kind.
And we just provided those analysis results
to them.
Did all of the technical support that
you gave the NRC relate to the repository or the
proposed reposi tory?
To th' e
NRC, yes.
Now, at the same
time, you see the department was, as required by
. 18
the Nuclear ' Waste
PolJ.cy Act, pr,eparing these site
characterization plans.
And so we were involved
in that effort
I was consul tant to Hanford.
One of the
projects was called the "Basalt Waste Isolation
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Here, to become Director of OCRWM.
That started in 1990, didnlt it?
I was confirmed in 1990.
The president
announced intent to nominate, actually, in October
of , 189.
6.
But Senator Richard Brian put a hold on
it.
Really?
What was the reason for that?
To slow down the program, obstruct
It was a political move.
it.
lO,
Did you do anything, hold any other
jobs, between the time you left TASC in 1989 and
12 '
the time you started at OCRWM?
I was consultant to DOE.
And the way
they worked then is, essentia!ly, it was you could
do a variety of things except in association with
the job you expect tQ hold.
So there, were a
number of things where I could be of help that had
nothing to do with OCRWM.
What were those things?
Oh environmental issues, some defense
issues.
Nothing , that
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fuel, then?
No.
They make sure that you stay aw~y
from any premature involvement with that
responsibility.
So how long, then, were you doing that
consulttng, how
m~y montbs?
Well, I was confirmed in the beginning
of April.
So five months.
During that time '
did you do anything to
prepare yours~lf for starting at OCRWM?
Not with respect to the details of
program operation.
secretary had directed before I got there
I would read the documents the
this
so-called program reassessment that was prepared
and issued just before I got there.
And I reviewed that as the basis for what my
duties might be and requirements.
But other than
that, mostly it was my experience with the
business.
I want to ask you about that program
reassessment.
, 22
But before I do, were there any
that you read in order to prepare?
other, documents
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There were no other ,
being prepared.
What did the program reassessment
involve?
It was an internal effort
I believe
, was internal to the DOE
to realign the
schedule and activities of , the prbgram because they had realized that the original objectives of '
schedule, especially with respect to disposal,
simply were not going to be met.
( 10
So they revised the schedule and the plans
of activities.
, 12
, What original obJectives were not going
to be met?
The schedule for disposal , basically.
Do you know what the schedule for
disposal was before this reassessment?
Well, it was stated in the mission
plan.
It actually said
1995.
You' re talking about
Let me stop you.
the 1985 mission plan?
Uh- huh.
And when you say originally it was
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1995, meaning that spent nuclear fuel would start
being disposed of in 1995?
It still wasn't spent nuclear fuel as
the target.
It was the glass, the vitrified
radioactive fission products.
So the ' 1985' mission plan document
w~snl t
referring ,
, any way to
spent nuclear fuel?
That wasn't the pl~n at the
time.
And had the' change to, worrying about
spent nuclear fuel, had that occurred when the
program reassessment came about?
I'd say it was starting
for reactors
to.
The, need
, to have
their fuel , moved was
really
just coming into awareness, so to speak; it was
15'
just dawning on , them, in essence, that the way
things were going, that they wouid not be able to
keep the reactors
running' unless they
started to
take the fuel for disposal.
And it was just becoming an
issue.
Since we
weren 1
t
go ing to reproces
s, - - you remember,
President Reagan did reinstitute an enablement of
reprocessing ( but it was determined by the
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industry" basically, that it was not cost
effective.
So right around the time of the Waste Policy Act during the Reagan administration, when he allowed it and then the industry
said~ "Forget it"
w:ith this
for economic reasons, all of a sudden, in essence,
liMy '
God, what are we going to do
Because the intent '
stuff?"
within
- - the
design of the
reactors originally was it 1 s going to move five years. It 1 s going to be taken for
reprocessing.
Just to clarify, because I don't think I was clear, when you referred to the 1985 mission
plan, that was the 1985 mission plan for OCRWM;
correct?
Uh- huh.
Waste Policy Act.
We' ve been going for about an
Why don I t we take a ten-minute break?
It was mandated by the Nuclear
hour.
Fine with me.
(Recess. )
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Zt was just a change in administration?
Yes.
Your resignation is accepted.
Wha t ' s your hurry?
"Here' s your hat.
Was there a name
for' your
one-man consulting
company?
The Bartlett Company.
You mentioned that you did technical
consulting for S . Cohen
Associates?
Uh- huh.
10,
: 11
Who else
did you do consul ting for?
'rhere was an enterprise known as
Pangea, P-A-N-G-E-A, that was dedicated to trying
to site an international repository in
Australia.
It was principally financed and backed by British
Nuclear Fuels Limited, principally a BNFL
enterprise.
And I helped them with that
How?
;1.9
effort.
By providing, again, studies and
evaluations of alternative systems to make it
work.
You need a fleet of ships; you need a port;
Characterization of a site in
you need a site.
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Australia just like
So I worked' on
Yucca, conceptually.
developing an integr~ted
system concept, helped support development of
that, and the logi stics of its operation because
you would be getting spent fuel from all over the
world.
Was that international disposal
, 8
facil~ty, was it contemplated that the United
States' , spent nuclear fuel would go there?
No, never.
Fro~ where was the spent nuclear fuel
that was going to go into that facility come?
Europe and Asia.
14 '
What w~s the result of your efforts on
that?
We were to the stage of presenting the
17.
concept to the Premier, and someone in, BNFL
leaked
a videotape and aborted the effort before we could
fully brief the high- level government officials of
Australia.
Leaked a videotape of what kind?
That described the concept, what it
,i.
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So once that videotape was leaked, they
essentially stopped the effort to design this
reposi tory?
tfu- huh.
, 5
To site it and design
it.
How long ' did you work on that effort?
About ' two years.
Who else did you consul t for while you
were a one -man consul ting
company?
ER Johnson and Ass ociates, which is a
very small technical consulting . firm.
What did you do ,
for them?
Usually helped them with p~oposal
preparation.
In fact, it was totally that, as I
recall.
Proposals of what kind?
For
17,
technical support to various
government , agencies.
:t want to go
back.
I should have
asked, when you were consulting for Pangea,
helping with the effort to design the
21 ' international
repository, what specifically did
you do with regard to that effort?
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I would do, essentially, the system studies, the logistics, what you had to have in the way of a fleet, ports, and where the spent fuel or the waste would come from, what would be
invoived in getting it to the ports, and
all:
the - -
same kinds of details as our national
program.
Did that involve work on what kind of
casks you would use for the spent nuclear fuel?
Not specifically.
The Europeans have
an established fleet of casks that they would use.
Anq there is an existing fleet that
transports
i\/
spent fuel from Japan to France, for example,
where the casks are specifically designed for the
purpose.
And tbat 1 s ' the kind of thing
that would be
used.
It would be just a matter of building more
of what already exists.
Were you involved in the design of this
potential repository?
Never got to that
stage.
Okay.
Who else did you consult for
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any capacity?
No.
Before this case, had you ever done any
other work for Spriggs & Hollingsworth?
No.
Or for Maine Yankee, Connecticut
Yankee, or Yankee Atomic?
No.
What do you consider to be your area or
areas of expertise?
Performance assessment.
Can you define that?
This is the mathematical modeling of
the technical physical features of the repository that determine how it will perform with respect to safety and compliance with the regulatory
standards.
Any other areas of expertise?
That subsumes quite a few things, in a
sense.
as - -
Not in the sense of a discipline such
okay.
I I m sorry.
Fairly extensive
knowledge in hydrology.
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m impressed because X got a very bad
grade in hydrology.
Any other areas of expertise?
Radiation effects.
Is that it?
That will
do.
Okay.
How did you come to be hired as
an expert in this particular litigation?
I presume because of my experience as
Director of OCRWM.
What was the first contact that was
made?
I don
t remember.
You don't remember whether
me start again.
-- well, let
Do you know whether you contacted
someone or someone contacted you?
No, no.
I was contacted.
remember who it was tha
And you don I t
con tac
ted you?
No, I don
It.
What is the first contact that you
remember?
I was asked to come to Spriggs &
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No. 3 is a mission plan, and I believe
this is the 1985 mission plan for OCRWM that we
talked about earlier.
Right?
Uh- huh.
When did you first see this document?
Not long after it was issued, because I
was a consultant to the electric power
industry,
Electric Power Research Institute, and we reviewed
it for that purpose.
As part of your consulting work?
Uh- huh.
And what were you reviewing it for?
Whether the program seemed to make
sense,
whether the content was appropriate, just overall
external peer review.
Did you use this document while you were a
director at OCRWM?
No.
Why not?
In a sense it was already outdated, and
Admiral Watkins had prepared the program
reassessment.
And in fact we started to do a
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