Free Response to Motion - District Court of Federal Claims - federal

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Case 1:98-cv-00126-JFM

Document 792-10

Filed 04/16/2004

Page 1 of 17

plant because there was no anticipation that there
\.J

would be spent fuel per

se.

It was to be

reprocessed, and you I d be disposing of radioactive

waste.
So at this point, waste management
~till meant reprocessing of fuel?
7- "

Oh, very definitely.

So why would there be a need for a
disposal facility, then?

.A

Well, the government had

authority,

under the Atomic Energy Act, for responsibility
for disposal of highly radioactive wastes, which is the radioactive material in spent

fuel. So the

idea was you were going to reprocess the spent

fuel, recover the uranium plutonium, and the
fission products ' were the waste.

The fission products would be vitrified,

made into a glass, and that was what was to be

disposed.
So part of your job in the Nuclear
Waste Management Program Office was to figure out
how to do that?

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Document 792-10

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Yes, to bring the system together.

Is Battelle sYnonymous with Pacific

Northwest Laboratories?
4.

Uh- huh.
Northwest when I was

It used to be Battelle

there.
times.,

When did they change?

They changed three

It started

as Battelle Northwest, then it became Pacific

Northwest Labs, and now it is Pacific Northwest
National Laboratory.

So it I S

PNNL, as consistency

throughout the DOE community.

So for clari ty, when
about the same company?

we refer to any of

those titles or to Battelle, we' re always talking

Yes.

Yes.

How long did you work in the Nuclear
Waste Management Program Office?
Until I left Battelle.

That was how long?

Five years.
Did you have other responsibilities
there at Battelle that we haven't discussed?

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Case 1:98-cv-00126-JFM

Document 792-10

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Page 3 of 17

Yes.
Okay.

All right.

Then moving on from
Between 1974

1974, when you went pack to Hanford. and 1978, what did you do?

I went back to the program office as

Manager, System Studies, and I led an effort to

prepare a five-volume doc~ment that we~t by the
name "The Technical Alternatives Document.

And

it was a compilation of every technology for every
action, that

could be taken in, nuclear ' waste

management.
And it involved personnel from every

nat ional lab.
, 14

So I was coordinating the

production of this massive

thing.

So the

expertise in one area might be at Sandia Labs, and
they would contribute those chapters.

And some was at Oakridge, and some was at
Savannah River, et

cetera. So we had,

essentially, a national team simply compiling
information and describing the technologies that
might be used for waste management and disposal.

Was that document published?

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Uh- huh.
Did you have any involvement in the
drafting of the Nuclear Waste Policy Act?

No.
No commenting or anything?

No.

We were consultant to the Nuclear

Energy Institute, but we were not involved in any

way with the form~l~tion of the ' act.
Congress ' to develop that act.

We

were very

much awar~ it was going on; it took six years fqr

But we had no involvement in it at
-c)

all.

When the act came out, was that
involved in any way in the work that you did at
, TASC? '

.15

No, not ' the act.

It was the Nuclear

Regulatory Commission regulations that were developed as a result of the act that became
important to our work.

How did those become important.

We provided technical support and

analyses.

We provided the bases for the

regulation.
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Case 1:98-cv-00126-JFM

Document 792-10

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Page 5 of 17

So essentially, you helped the NRC

promulgate those regulations?

Supported their ef fort.
What kind of technical support did you

gi ve them?
They had to do technical analyses as a

basis for what they would propose as

standards,

and we would do those kinds of analyses in terms

of the expected safety performance of the nuclear

waste repository, things, of this kind.
And we just provided those analysis results
to them.

Did all of the technical support that

you gave the NRC relate to the repository or the

proposed reposi tory?
To th' e
NRC, yes.

Now, at the same

time, you see the department was, as required by
. 18

the Nuclear ' Waste

PolJ.cy Act, pr,eparing these site

characterization plans.

And so we were involved

in that effort
I was consul tant to Hanford.

One of the

projects was called the "Basalt Waste Isolation

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Case 1:98-cv-00126-JFM

Document 792-10

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Page 6 of 17

Here, to become Director of OCRWM.

That started in 1990, didnlt it?
I was confirmed in 1990.

The president

announced intent to nominate, actually, in October

of , 189.
6.

But Senator Richard Brian put a hold on

it.
Really?
What was the reason for that?

To slow down the program, obstruct
It was a political move.

it.

lO,

Did you do anything, hold any other
jobs, between the time you left TASC in 1989 and

12 '

the time you started at OCRWM?
I was consultant to DOE.

And the way

they worked then is, essentia!ly, it was you could
do a variety of things except in association with
the job you expect tQ hold.

So there, were a

number of things where I could be of help that had
nothing to do with OCRWM.

What were those things?

Oh environmental issues, some defense

issues.
Nothing , that
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Case 1:98-cv-00126-JFM Document 792-10 Filed 04/16/2004 Page 7 of 17

fuel, then?

No.

They make sure that you stay aw~y

from any premature involvement with that

responsibility.
So how long, then, were you doing that
consulttng, how

m~y montbs?

Well, I was confirmed in the beginning
of April.

So five months.

During that time '

did you do anything to

prepare yours~lf for starting at OCRWM?

Not with respect to the details of
program operation.
secretary had directed before I got there

I would read the documents the

this

so-called program reassessment that was prepared
and issued just before I got there.

And I reviewed that as the basis for what my
duties might be and requirements.

But other than

that, mostly it was my experience with the

business.
I want to ask you about that program

reassessment.
, 22

But before I do, were there any
that you read in order to prepare?

other, documents

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-Case 1:98-cv-00126-JFM Document 792-10 Filed 04/16/2004 Page 8 of 17

There were no other ,

being prepared.

What did the program reassessment

involve?
It was an internal effort
I believe

, was internal to the DOE

to realign the

schedule and activities of , the prbgram because they had realized that the original objectives of '
schedule, especially with respect to disposal,
simply were not going to be met.

( 10

So they revised the schedule and the plans

of activities.
, 12

, What original obJectives were not going
to be met?

The schedule for disposal , basically.

Do you know what the schedule for
disposal was before this reassessment?

Well, it was stated in the mission

plan.

It actually said

1995.
You' re talking about

Let me stop you.

the 1985 mission plan?

Uh- huh.
And when you say originally it was

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1995, meaning that spent nuclear fuel would start
being disposed of in 1995?

It still wasn't spent nuclear fuel as

the target.

It was the glass, the vitrified

radioactive fission products.

So the ' 1985' mission plan document
w~snl t

referring ,

, any way to

spent nuclear fuel?

That wasn't the pl~n at the

time.

And had the' change to, worrying about
spent nuclear fuel, had that occurred when the
program reassessment came about?

I'd say it was starting
for reactors

to.

The, need

, to have

their fuel , moved was

really

just coming into awareness, so to speak; it was
15'
just dawning on , them, in essence, that the way

things were going, that they wouid not be able to

keep the reactors

running' unless they

started to

take the fuel for disposal.

And it was just becoming an

issue.

Since we

weren 1

t

go ing to reproces

s, - - you remember,

President Reagan did reinstitute an enablement of
reprocessing ( but it was determined by the

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Case 1:98-cv-00126-JFM

Document 792-10

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Page 10 of 17

industry" basically, that it was not cost

effective.
So right around the time of the Waste Policy Act during the Reagan administration, when he allowed it and then the industry

said~ "Forget it"
w:ith this

for economic reasons, all of a sudden, in essence,
liMy '

God, what are we going to do
Because the intent '

stuff?"
within

- - the

design of the

reactors originally was it 1 s going to move five years. It 1 s going to be taken for
reprocessing.

Just to clarify, because I don't think I was clear, when you referred to the 1985 mission

plan, that was the 1985 mission plan for OCRWM;

correct?
Uh- huh.
Waste Policy Act.
We' ve been going for about an
Why don I t we take a ten-minute break?

It was mandated by the Nuclear

hour.

Fine with me.

(Recess. )

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Case 1:98-cv-00126-JFM

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Zt was just a change in administration?

Yes.

Your resignation is accepted.
Wha t ' s your hurry?

"Here' s your hat.
Was there a name

for' your

one-man consulting

company?
The Bartlett Company.
You mentioned that you did technical
consulting for S . Cohen

Associates?

Uh- huh.

10,
: 11

Who else

did you do consul ting for?

'rhere was an enterprise known as

Pangea, P-A-N-G-E-A, that was dedicated to trying
to site an international repository in

Australia.

It was principally financed and backed by British

Nuclear Fuels Limited, principally a BNFL

enterprise.
And I helped them with that
How?
;1.9

effort.

By providing, again, studies and
evaluations of alternative systems to make it

work.

You need a fleet of ships; you need a port;
Characterization of a site in

you need a site.

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Case 1:98-cv-00126-JFM

Document 792-10

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Page 12 of 17

Australia just like
So I worked' on

Yucca, conceptually.
developing an integr~ted

system concept, helped support development of
that, and the logi stics of its operation because

you would be getting spent fuel from all over the

world.
Was that international disposal
, 8

facil~ty, was it contemplated that the United

States' , spent nuclear fuel would go there?

No, never.
Fro~ where was the spent nuclear fuel
that was going to go into that facility come?

Europe and Asia.
14 '

What w~s the result of your efforts on

that?
We were to the stage of presenting the
17.

concept to the Premier, and someone in, BNFL

leaked

a videotape and aborted the effort before we could
fully brief the high- level government officials of

Australia.
Leaked a videotape of what kind?

That described the concept, what it
,i.

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Document 792-10

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Page 13 of 17

So once that videotape was leaked, they
essentially stopped the effort to design this

reposi tory?
tfu- huh.
, 5

To site it and design

it.

How long ' did you work on that effort?

About ' two years.
Who else did you consul t for while you
were a one -man consul ting

company?

ER Johnson and Ass ociates, which is a

very small technical consulting . firm.
What did you do ,

for them?

Usually helped them with p~oposal

preparation.

In fact, it was totally that, as I

recall.
Proposals of what kind?

For
17,

technical support to various

government , agencies.

:t want to go

back.

I should have

asked, when you were consulting for Pangea,

helping with the effort to design the

21 ' international

repository, what specifically did

you do with regard to that effort?

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Case 1:98-cv-00126-JFM

Document 792-10

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Page 14 of 17

I would do, essentially, the system studies, the logistics, what you had to have in the way of a fleet, ports, and where the spent fuel or the waste would come from, what would be

invoived in getting it to the ports, and

all:

the - -

same kinds of details as our national

program.
Did that involve work on what kind of
casks you would use for the spent nuclear fuel?
Not specifically.

The Europeans have

an established fleet of casks that they would use.

Anq there is an existing fleet that

transports

i\/

spent fuel from Japan to France, for example,

where the casks are specifically designed for the

purpose.
And tbat 1 s ' the kind of thing
that would be

used.

It would be just a matter of building more

of what already exists.
Were you involved in the design of this
potential repository?

Never got to that

stage.

Okay.

Who else did you consult for

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Page 15 of 17

any capacity?
No.
Before this case, had you ever done any
other work for Spriggs & Hollingsworth?

No.
Or for Maine Yankee, Connecticut
Yankee, or Yankee Atomic?

No.
What do you consider to be your area or
areas of expertise?

Performance assessment.
Can you define that?

This is the mathematical modeling of

the technical physical features of the repository that determine how it will perform with respect to safety and compliance with the regulatory

standards.
Any other areas of expertise?

That subsumes quite a few things, in a

sense.
as - -

Not in the sense of a discipline such
okay.

I I m sorry.

Fairly extensive

knowledge in hydrology.

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m impressed because X got a very bad
grade in hydrology.

Any other areas of expertise?

Radiation effects.
Is that it?

That will

do.

Okay.

How did you come to be hired as

an expert in this particular litigation?
I presume because of my experience as
Director of OCRWM.

What was the first contact that was

made?
I don

t remember.

You don't remember whether
me start again.

-- well, let

Do you know whether you contacted

someone or someone contacted you?

No, no.

I was contacted.
remember who it was tha

And you don I t
con tac

ted you?
No, I don

It.

What is the first contact that you

remember?
I was asked to come to Spriggs &

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Case 1:98-cv-00126-JFM

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Page 17 of 17

No. 3 is a mission plan, and I believe
this is the 1985 mission plan for OCRWM that we
talked about earlier.

Right?

Uh- huh.
When did you first see this document?

Not long after it was issued, because I
was a consultant to the electric power

industry,

Electric Power Research Institute, and we reviewed
it for that purpose.

As part of your consulting work?

Uh- huh.
And what were you reviewing it for?

Whether the program seemed to make

sense,

whether the content was appropriate, just overall
external peer review.

Did you use this document while you were a
director at OCRWM?

No.
Why not?

In a sense it was already outdated, and

Admiral Watkins had prepared the program

reassessment.

And in fact we started to do a

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