Free Proposed Findings of Uncontroverted Fact - District Court of Federal Claims - federal

Case 1:06-cv-00211-VJW

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IN THE UNITED STATES COURT OF FEDERAL CLAIMS

NO. 06-211T (Judge Victor J. Wolski) JAMES R. THOMPSON, Plaintiff, V THE UNITED STATES, Defendant

----------------------------------ORAL DEPOSITION OF THOMAS E. TRAVIS APRIL 23, 2007 Volume 1 -----------------------------------

ORAL DEPOSITION OF THOMAS E. TRAVIS, produced as a witness at the instance of the DEFENDANT, and duly sworn, was taken in the above-styled and numbered cause on the 23rd of April, 2007, from 9:34 a.m. to 12:13 p.m., before Diana Pereira, CSR in and for the State of Texas, reported by machine shorthand, at the law offices of WINSTEAD, 5400 Renaisssance Tower, 1201 Elm Street, Dallas, Texas, pursuant to the Rules of the Court of Federal Claims.

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A P P E A R A N C E S FOR THE PLAINTIFF: MR. STUART M. REYNOLDS, JR. WINSTEAD 5400 Renaissance Tower 1201 Elm Street Dallas, Texas 75270 (214) 745-5360 FOR THE DEFENDANT:

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MR. JEFFREY MALO MR. STEVE FRAHM US DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, TAX DIVISION COURT OF FEDERAL CLAIMS SECTION P.O. Box 26 Ben Franklin Station Washington, DC 20044 (202) 305-7539 ALSO PRESENT: Mr. James R. Thompson

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INDEX PAGE Appearances........................................... 2 THOMAS E. TRAVIS Examination by Mr. Malo.......................... 4 Examination by Mr. Reynolds...................... 84 Further Examination by Mr. Malo.................. 86 Signature and Changes................................. 87 Reporter's Certificate................................ 89 EXHIBITS NO. 1 2 3 4 5 6 DESCRIPTION PAGE 6 10 50 50 52 74 Resume of Thomas E. Travis and attachments....... Affidavit of Thomas E. Travis.................... IRS Information Request - Mountain Air Charters Approximate Hours....................... Documents entitled Mr. James R. Thompson, Mountain Air Charter, Hour Analysis: Calendar Years 2002 and 2003..................... Logbook Number 8 of Thomas E. Travis............. Logbook Number 9 of Thomas E. Travis.............

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THOMAS E. TRAVIS, having been first duly sworn, testified as follows: EXAMINATION BY MR. MALO: Q. A. Q. Frahm. Good morning. Good morning. My name is Jeff Malo. I'm joined today by Steve

We're with the Department of Justice in the matter of Today we are deposing

James Thompson versus the United States.

Mr. Tom Travis, and he is joined by Mr. Stuart Reynolds and Mr. Thompson. Mr. Reynolds is the attorney for Plaintiff. This deposition has been scheduled by agreement of the parties, and I'd like to thank everybody for being here today. We do appreciate your time. And we will be taking this

deposition in accordance with the Rules of the Court of Federal Claims. Now, Mr. Travis, have you ever been deposed before? A. Q. Yes, I have. Okay. Well, then from your experience, you may know If my I will

that what I will do is ask you a number of questions. questions are unclear, I ask that you don't answer. rephrase at your request. tell me.

If you don't know an answer, please

I don't want you to speculate; but if you have some

idea about what an answer is but you're not absolutely certain,

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I ask that you please provide the information you have and describe the limits on your level of certainty. We can take a break at any time. ask if you'd like to take a break. Please simply

And Mr. Reynolds here may If he objects, then I

object to certain questions that I ask. have three options.

I can either withdraw my question, I can

rephrase my question, or I can ask you to answer the question as posed. If at any time you remember additional information,

I ask that you please provide it, even if we have moved on to another topic. If you wish to revise an answer or believe that you were mistaken about a previous answer, please advise me of this fact any time during the deposition. issue are 2002 and 2003. Now, the years at

All questions that I ask will relate It is our

to these tax years unless otherwise stated.

understanding that you were employed by Mountain Air from March of 2002 through November 2003? A. Q. That's correct. So any questions I ask you about your employer during

this period will refer to Mountain Air Charter, L.L.C. and/or Mr. Thompson. If any of my questions or your answers to any of my questions relate to situations where the activities or the services you are performing occurred outside of the circumstances of your employment, I ask you to please indicate

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so.

Can you do that? A. Q. A. Q. Yeah. Okay. No. Very good. Then let's get started. Do you have any questions?

First, I would like to have marked for identification as Exhibit 1 this, Mr. Travis' resume and statement of qualifications. (Exhibit No. 1 was marked.) A. Q. A. Q. What do I do with this? (BY MR. MALO) Okay. Just be a reference for you.

Thank you.

I would first like to verify that you are familiar

with this material? A. Q. Yes. Now, if I could, consistent with the information that

we have, if I could ask you to please state your full name for the record. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Thomas Edwin Travis.

And your address? 13532 Braemir Drive, B-R-A-E-M-I-R, Dallas, 75234. And telephone number? (972) 241-8102. Could you please describe your educational

background?

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A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. training? A. Q. training. A. Q. A.

I have a bachelor of arts degree from Arkansas A&M. Okay. Is that the only formal education you have? Go ahead.

Define -- I'm sorry. Let me rephrase. Yeah.

Could you include in your education your flight

Yes.

About 50 years of flight training.

And formal education as it relates to flight Did you go to flight school, for example? No, I didn't. I flew for American for 35 years.

How did you become a pilot? Hanging around the airport as a kid washing

airplanes, taking flying lessons. Q. Okay. Could you describe the flying lessons that you

took, how long you took them? A. seriously. Oh, I'm still taking them. I'm not being facetious,

I started in -- formal lessons in 1960 and have

continued training ever since. Q. A. Q. Airlines? A. Q. 1965. So is it an inaccurate statement that you had When did you first obtain a pilot's license? 1960. When did you first become employed with American

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approximately five years' flight training and experience prior to working with American? A. Q. A. Q. A. retire. Q. Could you describe your employment, experience since That's correct. And when did you retire from American Airlines? In August of 2001. Why did you retire? The age 60 rule, which at age 60, you're required to

retiring from American Airlines? A. Q. A. You mean who I've worked for since then? Yes. Okay. I worked for Jim Thompson first, Mountain Air

Charter; left Thompson in '03, flew for a company called Links Jet International; and did contract work and various operators. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. And are you currently employed? Part-time. And who is your current employer? PlaneSmart! Aviation. Do you work full-time? No, part-time. Part-time. Could you please summarize the activities that you may have taken in relation to this case? MR. REYNOLDS: Objection to the form.

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A. Q. A. Q. A.

I'm sorry.

I don't understand. I'll rephrase.

(BY MR. MALO) Okay.

When did you first become aware of this case? I honestly don't remember. It's been three, four

months ago, maybe. Q. A. Okay.

I don't remember how long it's been --

-- or even who contacted. THE WITNESS: I think it was you who contacted

me, Stuart. MR. REYNOLDS: Q. (BY MR. MALO) Probably was.

So you learned about this case through

Plaintiff's counsel? A. Q. True. Okay. Have you communicated with Plaintiff's counsel

regarding this case since then, since you first learned of the case? A. Q. Yes, I have. And approximately how many times -- do you know

offhand how many times you've discussed this case with him? A. Q. Just once. Have you ever met with Mr. Reynolds to prepare for

this case or this deposition? A. Q. I met with Mr. Reynolds one time. Okay. Is Mr. Reynolds acting as your personal

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attorney? A. Q. A. No. When were you first asked to testify in this case? I guess when you called me. I guess that was the

first time I knew I was going to be deposed. Q. contacted? A. Q. Yes. And what are the topics that you expect that you will Okay. And you agree to testify when you were first

be giving testimony on today? A. I expect -- well, basically, whatever you ask me; but

what I did for Mountain Air Charter, I assume. Q. Have you reviewed any documents in connection with

your deposition testimony here today? A. Q. No. Okay. Did you do anything to prepare for this

deposition? A. No -- well, just met with Mr. Reynolds, gave him a He gave me a thumbnail sketch of what it's

copy of my logbook.

about, and that was it. Q. Okay. MR. MALO: I'd like to have marked as Exhibit 2

an Affidavit submitted by Mr. Travis. (Exhibit No. 2 was marked.) Q. (BY MR. MALO) Mr. Travis, do you recognize this

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Affidavit? A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes, I do. When did you prepare this? I don't know. I don't see a date on it.

It's on the last page. Oh, okay. 2005. The records show that the document

MR. MALO:

was prepared on July 8th, 2005. Q. Affidavit? A. was. Q. Do you remember what the substance of your Affidavit Somebody asked me to, and I don't remember who that (BY MR. MALO) Mr. Travis, why did you complete this

statement is? A. Q. I'm looking at it. Yes, I do.

And this appears to be an accurate copy of the

Affidavit that you signed? A. Q. It does, uh-huh. Mr. Travis, I'd like to point your attention to the

third statement you make in your Affidavit, where you discuss your responsibilities as an employee of Mountain Air Charter. A. Q. Okay. And you state that they were limited to the following flying charter passengers for Mountain Air Charter

activities:

in accordance with FAA-approved operating specifications,

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flying the aircraft without passengers to a destination where charter passengers were to pick up, and coordinate a routine maintenance of the aircraft to the extent not performed by Mr. James Thompson. Was this the full extent of your responsibilities at Mountain Air? A. Q. To the best of my knowledge, yes. They were limited to flying passengers, positioning,

and maintenance flights? A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes. Did you ever perform any training? Yes. Could you describe the training you performed? I went through training initially at SimCom in

Florida, and then did flight training in the airplane. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Okay. Yes. Okay. Did you ever provide any instruction? So this is training you personally received?

Yes, I did. And did you provide instruction in your role as an

employee of Mountain Air Charter? A. It was in the airplane. As far as employee, not as

a -- I don't -- we did -- we did training. Q. A. Training or instruction? What's the difference?

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Q. A.

Were you receiving training or providing training? Yes. I'm not playing games with you. Yes, both.

Q.

Okay.

To the extent that you provided training, who

did you provide training to? A. Q. Jim Thompson. Okay. And why did you provide training to

Mr. Thompson? A. Q. Because he asked me to. And did this training occur during the period of time

in which you were an employee of Mountain Air Charter? A. Q. Yes. But you're unsure as to whether or not these training

activities, training you provided to Mr. Thompson occurred during the scope or course of your employment for Mountain Air? MR. REYNOLDS: A. That's correct. MR. MALO: I'll rephrase. Mr. Travis, I'm going to try to Objection to the form.

MR. REYNOLDS:

get my objection in, if I have one, before you begin your answer. THE WITNESS: MR. REYNOLDS: Okay. But if you would just take one

second before you answer to give me that chance, I'd appreciate it.

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THE WITNESS: Q. (BY MR. MALO)

Okay.

Did the training you provided

Mr. Thompson occur in the scope of your employment with Mountain Air Charters? A. It occurred during the time. As far as the scope, It was -- not as

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that.

part of the job description, I suppose, if that's what you mean. Q. A. Q. It was not part of the job description? No, I don't think so. Okay. What was the nature of your compensation for

Mountain Air Charter? A. Q. A. Q. In the form of a check. Were you salaried or were you hourly? Salary. Did you receive additional compensation for training

activities, training that you provided to Mr. Thompson? A. Q. No. Did training occur during normal hours? How many

hours a week were you employed? A. Q. A. Q. There were no set hours. On average, how many hours a week did you work? I have no idea. I'd like to direct your attention to Point Number 5 A little more than halfway down, you

in your Affidavit.

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stated, "I insisted that a substantial amount of time and training experience occur prior to commencing charter flight operations." Can you explain what you meant by this statement? A. Yes. I had no intention of putting myself at risk

financially, so I insisted on being trained to my satisfaction. Q. Can you explain what you mean putting yourself at

risk financially? A. Q. I didn't want to be sued. Are you suggesting that you would personally be

liable for accidents that may occur if you were a pilot? A. Q. Yes. And therefore, you insisted that a substantial amount

of training experience occur? A. Q. A. Q. That's correct. Training for whom? For me. Mr. Travis, had you ever flown a Pilatus PC-12 prior

to working for Mountain Air? A. Q. No, I had not. You claimed also in Point Number 5 in your Affidavit,

during the first couple of sentences, "During the first years of operation, Mr. Thompson and I spent considerable time in the aircraft together. These hours in the aircraft totaled

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approximately 100, and we spent much more time than that before and after flights." You claimed approximately a hundred hours of training? MR. REYNOLDS: Q. (BY MR. MALO) Objection to the word "claimed."

Your Affidavit specifies that you Is training what

spent approximately 100 hours in training.

you refer to when you say, "spent considerable time in the aircraft together," "totaled approximately 100"? A. yes. Q. A. Q. Who was getting comfortable in the airplane? Me. And you were getting comfortable in the airplane for Training and getting comfortable in the airplane,

your own purposes? A. Q. Yes. Because you didn't want to be liable for accidents

that may occur? A. Q. That's true. Was the requirement that you spend approximately a

hundred hours getting comfortable with the airplane a regulatory requirement? A. Q. A. No, it was not. Was it required by Mountain Air's insurance company? I have no idea, but I don't think so.

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Q.

If you had not spent these hundred hours in the

aircraft, would you have otherwise been qualified to fly the Pilatus PC-12? A. Q. Not in my judgment. Would you have been qualified under applicable

federal regulations that you're aware of? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. So why was this time necessary? Because I deemed it necessary. Thus, it was your personal comfort level and

familiarity with the aircraft that required you to conduct in excess of 100 hours' training? A. I don't know about the word "in excess of 100 hours";

but whatever time we flew, yes. Q. Thank you. I'll rephrase. That's true. Your

Affidavit says, "approximately 100." A. Q. Okay. For the time that you spent training, was it

necessary for Mr. Thompson to be with you? A. Q. A. It was not necessary. It was a good idea for safety.

Why was it a good idea for safety? Because most of the time, you're training on

instruments; and in fact, it's required if you are under a hood, you have a safety pilot. Q. How much time did you spend under a hood?

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A. Q.

I have no idea, but a lot. Does -- the time that you spent under a hood, was it

recorded in your personal flight logs? A. Q. A. Q. I don't think so. Why not? Not required. Who spent time under the hood, yourself or

Mr. Thompson? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. I did. Both or... Both. He spent some time.

You were hired by Mountain Air in March of 2002? That's correct, I believe. To the best of our knowledge, the Pilatus PC-12 was

purchased in May of 2002. A. It was delivered in May. It was purchased sometime

prior to that. Q. What did you do during March and April of 2002 for

Mountain Air? A. operation. Q. A. Q. A. Were you paid your full salary during this period? I think so. Did you participate in selecting the aircraft? No. I worked on the certification for the Part 135

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Q.

Were you asked for your opinion about the potential

aircraft that Mountain Air might purchase? A. Q. No. You said you completed SimCom training prior to

flying the Pilatus PC-12. A. Q. training? A. Q. A. Q. A. No. May 11th, 2002. Yes. Do you know approximately when you completed that

Was that the only time you completed SimCom training? No. There was recurrent training.

And you performed recurrent training in 2003? I don't have that before me; but it was annually, I

think, since 2003. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Did you attend SimCom training with anyone else? Yes. Who? My daughter. Did Mr. Thompson attend SimCom training with you? No. I would like to direct your attention to Item On the second page, second line

Number 8 in your Affidavit.

down, you state, "I personally witnessed or have direct knowledge of Mr. Thompson performing at least 50 hours per month of service with respect to Mountain Air Charter."

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Can you explain what you mean by that statement? A. Yes. Mr. Thompson worked more than 50 hours a month

for Mountain Air Charter. Q. A. Beginning when? Prior to -- to my knowledge, prior to March 2002, all

the way through the time I left. Q. You state, "I personally witnessed or have direct Can you explain the difference between "personally

knowledge."

witnessed" and "or otherwise have direct knowledge"? A. Q. Can you rephrase that? You state in your Affidavit that you either I'm uncertain

personally witnessed or have direct knowledge. what the distinction between the two means. A.

Well, what I mean by "personally witnessed" is I was That would be

there with him or was on the phone with him. direct knowledge. Q. Okay.

So "have direct knowledge" refers to time that

you spent on the telephone? A. On the phone or I know the work he did and he told me

about and I saw evidence of. Q. So "or have direct knowledge" refers to time that you

either spent on the telephone or time that Mr. Thompson reported to you that he spent -A. Q. No, that I saw of work he did. You saw evidence of work that he did?

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A. Q.

Uh-huh. Could you describe a few examples of what evidence of

work he might have did means? A. be posted. airplanes. Work in the office. I would come in, revisions would

The flash cards would be installed in the He did all the flash cards, all the data cards,

data-card updates, things of that nature. Q. You state later in your deposition, in the same item

number, 8, towards the bottom of that paragraph -MR. REYNOLDS: Are you referring to the

Affidavit, Deposition Exhibit 2? MR. MALO: Q. (BY MR. MALO) Yes. Item Number 8, second to last

sentence, you stated that "These hours included personal interaction with me in connection with my duties as a pilot from the time that he hired me until the time I left Mountain Air Charter as an employee. My knowledge of these hours is

both direct and indirect interaction with Mr. Thompson on these matters." Does that mean the same thing as "personally witnessed" or otherwise acquired direct knowledge? A. Q. Yes. Okay. So "indirect interaction with Mr. Thompson"

refers again to either telephone conversations or work product that you saw completed that no one else could have performed

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but for Mr. Thompson? A. Q. Right. Also in Item Number 8 of the same Affidavit, a little

further up in that paragraph, you stated, "He arranged for the cleaning of the interior and the exterior of the aircrafts." Did Mountain Air Charter ever own more than one airplane? A. No, not while I was there. I'm trying to find where

you see that. Q. Approximately four lines up from the bottom, five

lines up from the bottom. A. Q. That's a typo. May be just a typo. Did you ever fly any other aircraft for Mountain Air Charter? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. No. Do you know if Mr. Thompson owned any other aircraft? He owned a Mooney at the time. Did you ever fly the Mooney? No. Do you know if the Mooney was ever flown to conduct

Mountain Air Charter business, to transport passengers for example? A. No. MR. REYNOLDS: Excuse me. To my ear, that

question and answer are ambiguous.

Would you read them back,

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please? (Requested portion was read.) MR. REYNOLDS: MR. MALO: Do you hear the ambiguity?

I'll rephrase. I would appreciate it.

MR. REYNOLDS: MR. MALO: A. Q. Okay. (BY MR. MALO)

Let me phrase that as two questions.

Do you know if the Mooney was ever

used to conduct Mountain Air Charter business? A. Q. I don't know that, no. Do you know if any other aircraft was ever used to

fly passengers for Mountain Air Charters? A. Q. To the best of my knowledge, no. Thank you. Getting back to the question of training that you personally felt was necessary to feel comfortable with the aircraft, on a flight-by-flight basis, how was it determined that more training was needed? A. The training was ongoing. Because of the delay in

getting the certificate, once you complete training, your proficiency level does not -- does not stay static, and so the FAA was rather -- let me rephrase that. It took a while to get the air-taxi certificate, so I had to maintain proficiency throughout that -- let's see -- four months.

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Q.

What was required, from a regulatory standpoint, to

maintain proficiency? A. Q. Prior to certification, there was none. Thus, when you say that it was required that you

maintain proficiency in order to retain certification, what do you refer to? A. Q. That was my requirement. I'm confused. You stated that certification was

delayed and that certification required maintaining proficiency. MR. REYNOLDS: testimony. MR. MALO: testimony to me? (Requested portion was read.) Q. (BY MR. MALO) Thus, the proficiency that you sought Could you please reread the witness' Objection; misstates the witness'

to maintain was required for your personal comfort level with the aircraft? A. Yes, and it would be -- was going to be required to

demonstrate proficiency for the FAA later. Q. A. Q. A. How would you be required to demonstrate proficiency? In a checkride. And what is a checkride? A checkride is an exercise where an examiner rides

with you, gives you a series of maneuvers to perform, and

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you're expected to perform to certain standards, air transport standards in this case. Q. A. Could you describe the maneuvers? Take-offs, landings, approaches, malfunctions,

emergency procedures. Q. Would you be required to demonstrate any proficiency

under the hood? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. As part of the checkride? Yes. In the course of maintaining your personal comfort

level and your personal proficiency with the aircraft, how frequently did you feel that you needed to fly in order to maintain this proficiency? A. That's a hard question to answer. It's just if you

don't fly for two weeks, you really notice a difference. Q. During your employment with Mountain Air Charter,

beginning with the delivery of the aircraft in May of 2002, did you ever experience a period where you didn't fly for two weeks? A. I'm sure there was, but I don't -- I can't say

specifically. Q. So on a flight-by-flight basis, you made a personal

determination that additional proficiency training was necessary for yourself?

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A. Q.

Yes. And on a flight-by-flight basis, how did you obtain

authorization to continue these training flights? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. flights? A. Q. Yes, I think he did. Were there any flights, to the best of your I would just tell Jim I needed to fly. And what was the approval process? Just Okay. Just Okay. Uh-huh. And did Mr. Thompson accompany you on all of these Okay.

recollection, that Mr. Thompson did not accompany you on? A. or... Q. A. The proficiency flights that you described earlier. I'd have to look at my logbook, but I think he was I think he was with me on those What kind of flight are we talking about, training

with me -- I think so. flights. Q.

And his presence on those flights, according to what

you said earlier, was not necessary but was a good idea? A. judgment. Q. What was your role in these proficiency flights, did It was for safety reasons -- requiring, in my

you personally control the aircraft?

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A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. flights? A. Q.

Yes. On all of these flights? Except when I was -- when Jim was flying, yes. How often was Jim flying? I don't know. Did Mr. Thompson ever initiate these training

Occasionally, yes. What was the reason that Mr. Thompson initiated

training flights? A. Q. I don't know. So based on what you said earlier, you would come to

Mr. Thompson expressing your need to fly in order to maintain your proficiency? A. Q. Part-time, yes. And in addition to those occasions, there were times

when Mr. Thompson came to you and asked you to fly with him? A. Q. That's correct. And no reason was ever provided as to why

Mr. Thompson wanted additional flight time? A. Q. A. Q. A. Well, for training. Training for you? For both of us, but mostly for me. Mostly for you? Uh-huh. It was obvious it was training.

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Q.

During the period May 2002, delivery of the aircraft

through the time that Mountain Air obtained its Part 135 certification, did Mr. Thompson ever fly the PC-12 solo? A. Q. A. Q. I don't know. Did he ever express that as a goal? Express it as a goal, I -Did he ever tell you that he was attempting to gain

experience needed to fly the aircraft by himself? A. Q. I think he did, yes. To the best of your knowledge, was Mr. Thompson

qualified to fly the aircraft by himself at the time it was delivered? A. Q. A. Q. No. No, he was not? No, he was not. Do you know what requirements he was lacking in order

to fly the aircraft solo? A. I don't think Jim had been to school on the airplane.

I don't recall. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. What does "been to school on the airplane" mean? He was going through formal training. Such as SimCom? Correct. Is there additional training that would be needed? Yes, flight training.

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Q. A.

And where do you obtain flight training? You can either go through an organization like SimCom

or a flight instructor like me could do it. Q. Did you provide any flight instruction to

Mr. Thompson? A. Q. Yes, I did. Did you provide him with this instruction for the

purpose of satisfying the requirement you just said he was lacking at the time the aircraft was delivered? A. I'm not sure exactly during the time -- which time

frame it was, but yes. Q. So from May 2002 through the date, I believe

September 3rd, 2002, on which Mountain Air Charter received it's Part 135 certification, you provided flight instruction for the purpose of satisfying the flight school requirements that Mr. Thompson would need to fly a PC-12 solo? A. Flight school requirements, no, there was no flight

school requirement that I know of. MR. MALO: testimony to me. A. I thought the term "flight school" is what you used. THE REPORTER: question and answer or -MR. MALO: The question and answer where I asked You want me to read the last Sorry. Could you reread the

what requirements he was lacking, and he responded that he

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hadn't completed the -- I thought he had said "flight school." MR. REYNOLDS: Let's go off the record.

(Discussion off the record) Q. (BY MR. MALO) So the instruction that you provided

Mr. Thompson between May and September of 2002 was flight instruction that serves as an alternative to formal flight school with an organization like SimCom? A. No, it wouldn't be as an alternative. It would be as

a supplement. Q. A. Q. As a supplement? True. Okay. In 2003, do you know if Mr. Thompson ever flew

the PC-12 solo? A. Q. I think he did, but I -- yes, I think he did in 2003. What changed in his status that allowed him to fly

solo in 2003? A. He had been to school at SimCom, I believe, and had

received enough instruction and time in the airplane. Q. Who provided him with enough instruction and time in

the airplane? A. Q. I did, part of it. Did anyone else provide him with instruction time in

the airplane? A. Q. I can't testify to that, but I believe SimCom did. Are you aware of any other flight instruction that

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either yourself or Mr. Thompson may have received in Colorado? A. Q. A. Yes. Could you describe that? Yes. Mr. Thompson hired an instructor to check me

out at mountain airports in Colorado by a young man who was -I think he flew for one of the commuters up in Colorado. And

we went to various airports, high-altitude airports or airports with tricky approaches. Q. I refer to your Affidavit, Statement Number 5.

"Mr. Thompson caused Mountain Air Charter to engage an instructor pilot in Colorado to train us on flight patterns and approaches to high-altitude airports in the State of Colorado. Mr. Thompson was on all of these training flights with me." With respect to the training that occurred for flights in Colorado, there was an instructor in addition to yourself on these flights? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. necessary? A. Q. Whose standards? I don't know. That's correct. And Mr. Thompson was on these flights? That's correct. Who did the instructor provide instruction to? Mostly to me but to both of us, but it was mostly me. Was Mr. Thompson's presence on these flights

Earlier you stated that it was not necessary for

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Mr. Thompson to fly with you on proficiency training flights that you needed for your own comfort level, but that it was a good idea because he served as a safety pilot. For the flights

in Colorado with a flight instructor and yourself present, did Mr. Thompson serve as a safety pilot? A. Q. there? A. Q. No. What was Mr. Thompson's role, to the best of your No, he did not. Was there any regulatory requirement that he be

observations, on these flights? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Charters? A. I don't know. Sometime after we received the Observing. And what was your role on these flights? As a trainee. Did you serve as safety pilot on these flights? No. When did you begin flying passengers for Mountain Air

certificate. Q. A. Is that when you began flying passengers for revenue? Wait. Let's back up on that. When you say

"passengers," you mean for hire or for people on board? Q. I'm about to inquire on that and make that

distinction.

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When did you first fly passengers for Mountain Air Charter on a nonrevenue basis, if at all? A. Q. A. We had guests on board occasionally. Who were these guests? My daughter, my wife. That was basically it. My

wife was -- went along with us. Q. A. Did Mr. Thompson ever have guests on these flights? I honestly don't remember. I don't recall any guests

on those flights, Mr. Thompson's. Q. Prior to receiving Part 135 certification, is it an

accurate statement that the only passengers on the Pilatus PC-12 were guests of a personal nature for either yourself or Mr. Thompson? A. Q. A. Q. Do you mean as opposed to paying passengers? Yes, sir. That's correct. And do you recall when you began flying passengers

for revenue? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Sometime after the certification was complete. In 2002? 2002, yes. And do you know who these passengers were? No, I don't. Do you know what their relationship was to

Mr. Thompson?

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A. Q.

No.

They were customers.

Did Mr. Thompson ever fly as a customer after

certification was obtained? A. Q. Yes, he did. Did he ever fly as a safety pilot after certification

was obtained? A. Q. Yes. Did he continue to receive flight instruction from

you after certification was obtained? A. not sure. Q. I don't recall if we did -- I think maybe so, but I'm I can't testify for sure on that. I think so.

I'd like to refer again to your Affidavit, again, "I had been

Item Number 5, about halfway down the paragraph.

flying large commercial jets for American Airlines for 36 years. I had never flown a turboprop before. In

particular, the Pilatus aircraft owned by Mountain Air Charter was a specialty aircraft with characteristics that make it particularly capable of take-off and landings at high-elevation mountain airports and small landing strips. Further, I had

normally flown with a crew rather than as a single pilot." Am I correct in understanding that statement to mean that part of the reason you felt it personally necessary to engage in approximately 100 hours of training prior to flying revenue passengers, revenue paying passengers, part of the reason was that you had normally flown with a crew rather

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than as a single pilot? A. Q. Partially, yes. In revenue service, that's true.

Can you describe the difference in the role that you

play with and without a crew? A. help. Q. A. Q. What does a crew do? Whatever the captain asks. In your role as a single pilot for Mountain Air If you have a crew, you have assistance, you have

Charters, by the time you began flying passengers for revenue, what services did you perform for them or what activities did you undertake in addition to being the single pilot? A. Q. I'm sorry. Certainly. What did you do for your passengers beyond flying the aircraft on revenue flights? A. Q. That's pretty much it. Can you help me understand, then, what the Rephrase that, please.

complication is between having a crew and having assistance and not having a crew and not having assistance if -- and correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds as though your role in either environment is essentially the same. aircraft and nothing else. A. I'm not sure exactly where you're going with that. You're piloting the

But when you are flying with passengers on board, you have a

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responsibility of paying attention to them, seat belt, no smoking, that sort of thing, but basically more responsibility. Q. Okay. Whether -- during the period of time between

the date that the aircraft was delivered and you obtained the Part 135 certification or afterwards on the revenue flights -and if there's a difference please describe it to me -- what type of pre- and post-flight activities need to occur? A. Obtaining weather briefings; planning the flight;

catering the flight, if necessary; fuel; servicing of the airplane; executing the flight, of course; and then post-flight activities. Q. If I can stop you there for a moment. Does that mean

that the activities you just described are all pre-flight activities? A. Q. No. If you could break it out into pre-flight and

post-flight activities, I'd appreciate it, if possible. A. Okay. The things I just mentioned, and then conduct

the flight.

Post-flight, you've got to conduct a post-flight

inspection; secure the aircraft; arrange for storage; servicing, whatever is necessary for the airplane. Q. A. Q. flights? Did you perform pre-flight and post-flight services? Yes, I did. Did you perform these activities on all of the

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A. Q. mean? A.

Every one I conducted, yes. When you say "Every one I conducted," what does that

If I fly the airplane, I do the pre-flight, I do the It's regulatory.

post-flight. Q.

Would you do the pre-flight and post-flight for

flights on which dual pilots were involved? A. Q. If I were on the airplane, yes. Is it an accurate statement that every flight in

which you flew or co-piloted, you conducted pre-flight and post-flight activities? A. Q. A. Q. A. That's true. The same list that you just read through? Yes. Did you conduct these activities alone? Not always. If Jim were there, he'd help me with the

pre-flight, post-flights. Q. do? A. Anything I asked him to do, arrange for the fuel; be And to what extent would he help you, what would he

with me on the walk-around if he happened to be there; on the shut down, he always helped if he were there; securing the airplane, which is quite a complex operation on a Pilatus. Q. A. Why is that a complex operation on a Pilatus? Well, you have to put on harnesses, you have to

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secure the propeller. airplane. Q. A. Q.

It's different than a jet or just an

How did you learn how to do these activities? At SimCom. And Mr. Thompson performed the same activities,

securing the aircraft after -- post-flight? A. Q. You mean when he flew? When he performed activities with you, post-flight

activities with you? A. Q. SimCom. A. Q. Yes. Did you play any role in obtaining the Part 135 He would assist me, yes. And I would assume he learned the same procedures at

certification? A. Q. A. Yes, I did. What did you do? Met with the FAA repeatedly, wrote off specs,

operation specifications, all the functions necessary to get the certification. Q. specs? A. Q. A. Yes, toward the end, I did. Who assisted you? David Norton. Did you have any assistance in preparing the op

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Q. A.

Who is David Norton? David Norton is an attorney with Akin -- some law

firm here in Dallas. Q. A. Q. Akin, Gump? Yeah, Akin, Gump. Did Mr. Thompson assist you in obtaining Part 135

certification? A. Q. A. Yes, he did. And what did he do? Whatever was necessary. We spent hours going through

documents trying to write correct operation specifications, defining terms for the FAA, that sort of thing. Q. Do you know how many hours you spent preparing for

135 certification? A. Q. No, I don't. It was significant.

Do you know how many hours Mr. Thompson spent

preparing for 135 certification? A. Q. No, I don't. Once you received certification, did you ever assist

in managing some of the operations of Mountain Air Charter? A. Q. A. Q. I think -- define "managing operations." Did you ever schedule passenger flights? No, I did not. Did you ever receive or accept or process payment

from passengers?

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A. Q. A. Q.

No. Do you know how passengers were billed? No. Do you know if you ever provided services for ORIX

Corporation? A. Q. A. Q. Provided services for ORIX. Transportation services through Mountain Air Charter. Yes, there were some ORIX employees on board, yes. Were there ever ORIX employees on board prior to

receiving Part 135 certification? A. Q. I don't recall. But you do recall ORIX personnel being on board post

135 certification? A. Q. A. Yes. Was ORIX a paying customer for these flights? As far as I know, yes. MR. REYNOLDS: hour. We've been going a little over an

Do you want to take a short break? MR. MALO: That's fine with me.

(Break taken from 10:30 a.m. to 10:48 a.m.) Q. (BY MR. MALO) If I can just take care of a couple of

minor follow-up questions here from our prior discussion today. First, in reference to Exhibit Number 1, if I could ask -- I believe I asked you if you were familiar with this document. If I can ask you to specifically identify this

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document. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. It's my resume, but it's an old resume.

Does it appear to be a true and accurate resume? Yes, it does. Do you recognize it as your resume? Yes, I do. Was it prepared by you? Yes. Does it appear to be the resume that you submitted to

Mountain Air Charter for consideration as an employee? A. I can't testify to that. I don't know. I don't see

a date on it. Q. A. Q. But you can affirmatively say that it is your resume? Yes, I can. Okay. With respect to your Affidavit, Exhibit

Number 2 -A. Q. A. it. Okay. -- did you draft this document? I don't think so. I approved it and obviously signed

I don't know who wrote that. Q. A. You don't know who drafted this document? No, I don't. THE WITNESS: MR. REYNOLDS: Q. (BY MR. MALO) Did you do it, Stuart? No.

Do you know if this document was

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drafted by an attorney? A. Q. A. Q. I assume it was. Do you remember signing the document? Yes, I do. If I could follow up on some of our subject matter

areas that we discussed earlier as well. You indicated earlier today that Mr. Thompson received some training under your instruction during the period May 2002 through at least September 2002. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Did he indicate why he wanted this training? No. You also indicated that Mr. Thompson was not

authorized to fly the aircraft solo when it was first delivered through the date on which certification was obtained. A. To the best of my knowledge, through the date. I

know he was not qualified when the airplane was delivered. Q. When you say "he was not qualified," is that a

regulatory restriction? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. It would be an insurance requirement. That was an insurance requirement? Uh-huh. So he was not qualified for insurance purposes? Best -- to the best of my knowledge, correct. Do you know when he became qualified for insurance

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purposes? A. Q. purposes? A. Q. A. He went through SimCom training. And that was all? He received dual, in the airplane from a SimCom I don't recall. Do you know how he became qualified for insurance

instructor; and of course I had given him a dual in the airplane, also. Q. So is it an accurate statement that the insurance

requirements needed for Mr. Thompson to fly the plane solo were satisfied by a combination of SimCom training and private flight instruction under your tutelage? A. Q. That's accurate. You mentioned also that there was a delay in the

certification for Part 135 for Mountain Aircraft charters. A. Q. A. Q. A. June. Q. A. Q. Of what year? 2002. And was it, in fact, obtained on September 3rd, 2002? Yes. Was this delay expected? No. When was certification originally anticipated? I expected to have it by the end of May, first of

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A.

I don't recall the exact date, but that's about

correct, somewhere in that time frame. Q. So it's an accurate statement that the Part 135

certification was delayed, at a minimum, three months? A. Q. That's correct. Once certification was obtained, did you continue to

feel personally obliged to maintain proficiency through frequent flights -A. Q. Yes, I did. -- on the PC-12? Once Mr. Thompson met the insurance requirements, did you continue to feel personally obliged to maintain your proficiency on the aircraft? A. Q. Yes, I did. And once Mountain Air Charter began revenue

operations, did you feel personally obliged to maintain your proficiency on the aircraft? A. Q. Yes, I did. And you maintained proficiency on the aircraft

through frequent flights? A. Q. Yes. When you conducted revenue flights, did you perform

training maneuvers -A. Q. No. -- with paying passengers?

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A. Q.

No. Did you ever spend time under the hood with paying

passengers? A. Q. Never. So once revenue operations commenced, training and

proficiency was something you had to maintain over and above flight times you recorded as a revenue flight? A. Q. means? A. Well, you have to have a minimum of three take-off That's correct. Can you tell me what a currency training requirement

and landings in class, category, and type, in this case, the PC-12, in the last 90 days. And if you operate at nights, you

have to have three take-off and landings at night in the last 90 days. Q. currency? A. Q. currency? A. That's correct, plus instrument proficiency, which is Right. Three take-offs and landings during night for night Three take-offs and landings during day for day

a series of approaches and various maneuvers. Q. Is there -- similar to currency requirements which

can be defined numerically, for instrument proficiency, are there any minimum number of approaches required?

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A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.

Yes, six approaches. Over what period? Six months. Over six months? Over six months, yes. So it's an accurate statement that -- and whose

regulations are these, by the way? A. Q. A. Q. Those are the federal regulations. Federal Aviation Administration's regulations? Yes. Over 90 days, three take-offs and landings for day

and three for night if night currency is at issue? A. Q. A. That's correct. And over six months, six instrument approaches? That's correct. The landings at night will count for

the day landings, but not vice versa. Q. A. Q. With regards to the currency requirement? Correct. And you personally felt obligated to exceed these

requirements? A. Q. A. Q. Yes, I did. Did you substantially exceed these requirements? I'm sure I did. You also indicated earlier that at least by 2003,

Mr. Thompson was able to fly the PC-12 solo?

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A.

I'm not sure exactly when it happened, but it was, I

think, somewhere around 2003. Q. A. Q. Do you know why he flew the plane solo? No, I don't. Do you know if he flew the plane to transport

passengers, paying passengers? A. Q. A. Q. No, not paying passengers. Do you know if he flew guests? I don't know. Do you know if his use of the plane was personal in

nature or related to Mountain Air business activities? A. I assume it was personal. There was, I think, some

business in taking the airplane to the service centers for maintenance. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Where were the service centers? Denver, Colorado. Were there any other locations for service centers? At first, no. That was the only location.

For 2002 and 2003, were those the only -In late -- in 2003, a service center in Fort Worth

became available for limited maintenance. Q. Okay. Do you know -- when Mr. Thompson flew solo, do

you know what the destination of any of his nonservice-related flights were? A. I didn't keep track of that, no.

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Q.

Do you know -- for the period during which you did

not have certification in which you were maintaining proficiency for your own comfort level, do you know the destination of the flights that you piloted? A. Q. Yes, I do. Were any of these destinations related to business

that Mr. Thompson had to conduct in his capacity as an ORIX employee? A. Q. Not to my knowledge. Were any of the destinations to which you flew

recreational in nature? A. Q. Recreational how? I don't understand.

Maintaining proficiency on the aircraft required

frequent flight time for you? A. Q. A. Q. Uh-huh. This was for your own comfort level? Right. Between take-offs and landings, what type of

activities occurred on the ground, if any? A. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that. Could

you rephrase the question? Q. Certainly. In the course of maintaining your proficiency for your comfort level, when you took off and landed at a destination that was not the point of origin, how long would
1700 Pacific Avenue Suite 4750 Dallas, Texas 75201

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you be on the ground before taking off again? A. It varied. It would depend on where you were.

Sometimes if you need the fuel, you'd stop and get the fuel; otherwise, you'd keep going. Q. hours? A. Q. A. Q. Yes, occasionally. Were you ever on the ground for more than a few days? No. So the proficiency training that you conducted prior Were you ever on the ground for more than a few

to certification were essentially day trips; would that be an accurate statement? A. Q. Mostly day trips. There were some overnights.

And do you recall any of the destinations for

overnight trips? A. Mexico. Q. And during the overnight trips, did you spend your Yes. We went to California, Oregon, Colorado, New

time on the ground at the destination with Mr. Thompson? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. A hundred percent of it? No, not a hundred percent. Did you spend all of your waking-day hours with him

on the ground? A. No.

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Q.

What type of activities did you conduct on overnight

trips, did you do any recreational activities for yourself? A. I don't recall. I know we went to Taos. In fact, we

worked on certification out there quite a bit. Q. Do you know if Mr. Thompson ever engaged in

recreational activities during overnight trips? A. If I wasn't -- if I was not with him, I don't know

what he was doing. Q. I would like to refer once again to your Affidavit,

Exhibit Number 2, and I would like to have the following documents marked as Exhibits 3 and 4. (Exhibit Nos. 3 and 4 were marked.) Q. (BY MR. MALO) Paragraph Number 9 in your Affidavit,

you state, "I reviewed the attached hours analysis of Mr. Thompson and believe that it accurately describes the activities that Mr. Thompson undertook while I was employed at Mountain Air Charters." In the materials I received, there were no hourly analysis attached. The materials I did receive,

however, contained two separate documents with hourly analysis of Mr. Thompson's time. Could you identify either Exhibit 3 or

Exhibit 4 as the document to which you referred in your Affidavit? A