Free Declaration in Support - District Court of California - California

Case 3:07-cv-05086-WHA
1

Document 68-13

Filed 09/11/2008

Page 1 of 10

2
3 4
5

6

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA SAN FRANCISCO DIVISION CALIFORNIA STATE FOSTER ) PARENT ASSOCIATION, ) CALIFORNIA STATE CARE ) PROVIDERS ASSOCIATION, AND ) LEGAL ADVOCATES FOR ) Case No. PERMANENT PARENTING, ) C 07 086 WHA Plaintiffs, -vsJOHN A. WAGNER, Director of the California Department of Social Services, in his official capacity; MARY AULT, Deputy Director of the Children and Family Services Division of the California Department of Social Services, in her official capacity,
) ) ) )
)

Certified Copy

7
8 9

10
'11

) ) ) )
)
)

12

)
)

13
14 15 16

) )
)

)
)

Defendants.
17 18 19

) )

----------------)

VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF PATRICIA AGUIAR, at 400 Capitol Mall, Suite 2600,
20

Sacramento, California, commencing
21

at 10:09 a.m., Monday, April 28, 2008,
22

before WENDY E. ARLEN, CSR No. 4355, RMR,
23

CRR.
24 25

Pages 1 - 129
1
Veritext National Deposition & Litigation Services 866 299-5127

Case 3:07-cv-05086-WHA
1
Q. A. Right.

Document 68-13

Filed 09/11/2008

Page 2 of 10
11:39:01

2
3
4

That's the most significant one.

There were

11:39:02 11:39:15 11:39:23 11:39:28 11:39:35 11:39:40 11:39:42 11:39:45

others that looked at specific subgroups of
I

categories.

An example would be community treatment

5
6
7

facilities, which was a new category.

Q.

Did any ever look at the specific subgroup of

foster family homes? A. Q. You mean by itself? Yes. Not to my knowledge. I mean, I can't

8
9 10

A.

11:39:46 11:39:51 11:39:53 11:40:01 11:40:06 11:40:09 11:40:12 11:40:16

11
12 13 14 15 16

remember it being specific to just that population. Q. Okay. Would -- would the foster family

homes, the rates relating to foster family homes have been combined with, let's say, a task force on group homes and/or foster family agencies? MR. PRINCE: You may answer. THE WITNESS: mean. Q. MS. MARSHACK: Okay. Well, you said you Combined, I'm not sure what you Objection, ambiguous and vague.

17
18 19 20 21

11:40:18 11:40:20 11:40:20 11:40:22 11:40:25 11:40:28 11:40:33 11:40:36 43

don't remember any specifically relating to only foster family homes, but were there any task forces relating to foster care rates provided to foster family homes at any time in the context, you know, not alone. Together with --

22
23 24 25

Veritext National Deposition & Litigation Services 866 299-5127

Case 3:07-cv-05086-WHA
1
2

Document 68-13

Filed 09/11/2008

Page 3 of 10
11:49:19 11:49:22
11: 49: 25

outcomes for children. people that said, good incentives. enough.

There were folks -- I mean,

just raise the rates and you'll get You know, that will be incentive

3
4

11:49:29 So I'm saying there are so many different 11:49:30 11:49:32 11:49:36 Did the task force take a position as far as 11:49:37 11:49:40 11:49:42 11:49:43 11:49:46 11:49:52 11:49:55 11:49:59 11:50:05 11:50:11 11:50:15 11:50:19 11:50:21 11:50:23 11:50:27 THE WITNESS: It's never relevant. The raising rates is not 11:50:27 11:50:30 11:50:32

5 6
7

perspectives, so many things that were on the table. So ... Q.

8
9
10

whether raising rates would be an effective incentive? A. Well, everyone had, you know, different But I can't remember a specific The

11
12 13 14 15 16 17

opinions on that.

recommendation to raise the rates.

recommendations were mostly around changing the way we established the rates, the way we, you know, pay people, but just a recommendation just to raise all rates, I don't remember that as being an overall recommendation that was moved forward. Q. Did you have a personal opinion as to whether

18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25

raising rates would be an appropriate incentive? MR. PRINCE: answer. Objection, relevance. You may

Q.

MS. MARSHACK:

relevant?

48
Veritext National Deposition & Litigation Services 866 299-5127

Case 3:07-cv-05086-WHA
1 A. Q.

Document 68-13

Filed 09/11/2008

Page 4 of 10
11:50:32 11:50:35 11:50:39 11:50:42 11:50:44 11:50:47 11:50:52 11:50:56

My personal opinion is not relevant. Well, I'm asking for your personal opinion So I'm

2
3
4

because you have knowledge in this area.

,
entitled to understand your personal opinion. MR. PRINCE: THE WITNESS: Same objection. You may answer. My 5

6
7

I represented a department.

personal opinion was not, you know, was not relevant, is not relevant.
Q.

8
9
10 11

MS. MARSHACK:

But as part of your job

11:50:57 11:50:59 11:51:05 11:51:06 11:51:06 11:51:13 11:51:16 11:51:16 11:51:20 11:51:27 11:51:29 11:51:31 11:51:38 "11:51:44 11:51:46 11:51:50 11:51:54

duties, you could be part of these task forces to make recommendations, correct? A.
Q.

12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20

Correct. So you would give ideas that could possibly

improve outcomes for children, correct? A. Q. Correct. And these ideas would come from your

experience and understanding that had come through your job duties, correct?
A.

Yes. And so what you believed to be effective in

Q.

21 22
23 24 25

terms of improving outcomes would be relevant. MR. PRINCE: Objection, same objection.

Still irrelevant and argumentative and asked and answered. You may respond. I mean, my response is that I

THE WITNESS:

49
Veritext National Deposition & Litigation Services 866 299-5127

Case 3:07-cv-05086-WHA
1
2

Document 68-13

Filed 09/11/2008

Page 5 of 10
11:51:56 11:51:59 11:52:09 11:52:13 11:52:16 11:52:19 11:52:21 11:52:24 11:52:30 11:52:35

had an official responsibility as a representative of the department. as much as a My personal opinion is not relevant opinion of someone who's

3
4
5

person~l

running a group horne association is not as important as what their constituents want. Q. MS. MARSHACK: Well, then let's talk about As a representative of

6
7

your professional opinion.

8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

the Department of Social Services, were you of the opinion that raising rates could provide an effective incentive? MR. PRINCE: Objection. Ms. Aguiar is not

11:52:36 11:52:39 11:52:44

here as a spokesperson for the department or as an expert. Q. A. MS. MARSHACK: But you can answer. In my

11:52:47 11:52:48 11:52:52 11:52:54 11:53:03 11:53:06 One 11:53:10 11:53:19 11:53:26 11:53:30 11:53:33 11:53:34 50

I mean, my answer is the same.

official duties with the department, I was responsible for the task force doing its job, and my personal opinion one way or the other or how many ways was not relevant. Q. All right. Well, then we will move on.

of the things you mentioned were -- was a suggestion as far as improving positive outcomes was giving more dollars in the early part of the case. explain what that means? A. There were some advocates who believed that Can you

Veritext National Deposition & Litigation Services 866 299-5127

Case 3:07-cv-05086-WHA
1

Document 68-13

Filed 09/11/2008

Page 6 of 10
11:55:47 11:55:51 11:55:57 11:56:02 11:56:07 11:56:13

result, some of this is being tested -- that if you provide more money in the initial part of engaging with a child you
ca~

2

3
4
5
6

provide higher level, 'more

intense services, therefore allowing the child to then be out of care or be placed in lower levels or lower cost care faster. Q. MS. MARSHACK: All right. Okay. Thank you. That helped

7

11:56:16 11:56:18 11:56:34 11:56:39 11:56:42 11:56:45

8
9

me a lot.

Now, we're going way back.

You said you were staff services manager I in the Foster Care Rates Bureau and that you supervised 11 rates analysts. analysts did? MR. PRINCE: I think that mischaracterizes Can you tell me what the rates

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

11:56:46 11:56:48 11:56:50 11:56:55 11:57:04 11:57:15 11:57:23 11:57:27 11:57:37 11:57:41 11:57:44 11:57:48 11:57:52 52

her testimony, but you may answer. THE WITNESS: Rates analysts are assigned,

usually geographically, group homes and foster family agencies. When I was in the rates bureau, we

reviewed group home and FFA, foster family agencies, FFA rate applications on an annual basis consistent with the law and regulations related to rate setting; and so they receive these annual applications, review -- reviewed the applications based upon a history of their spending and various categories and that kind of thing and then established the rate for the coming year.

Veritext National Deposition & Litigation Services 866 299-5127

Case 3:07-cv-05086-WHA
1 Q.
A. Q.

Document 68-13
Okay.

Filed 09/11/2008

Page 7 of 10
11:57:53 11:57:55 11:58:00 11:58:03 11:58:06 11:58:10 11:58:13 11:58:14 11:58:18 11:58:20 11:58:23 11:58:23

MS. MARSHACK:

Based

2
3
4 5

Based on the regulations and -Okay. They would -- but they would follow
I

would they follow rate classification levels that were established and find out where along the chart basically the group home fell? A. Q. Yeah, exactly. Okay. Did the rate analysts have any where in

6
7

8
9

responsibility for foster family homes? A. Q. A. Q. Not in -- no. No. Not in that bureau. Not in this bureau. Did they in any bureau,

10

11

12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20

11:58:26 11:58:31

as far as you're aware? A. It was -- I mean, I'm closing my eyes here

11:58:32 11:58:35 11:58:36 11:58:37 11:58:39 11:58:42 11:58:45 11:58:58 11:59:02 11:59:03

trying to think. Q. Right. That responsibility moved around and things Primarily the foster

A.

got organized -- reorganized.

family home rates are in statute.

21 22
23 24 25

Q.

Okay.

So would the rates -- so would the

rates that were paid to foster family homes follow the statute? A. Q. Yes. Okay. So now we can move forward, and we can

11:59:04 53

Veritext National Deposition & Litigation Services 866 299-5127

Case 3:07-cv-05086-WHA
1

Document 68-13

Filed 09/11/2008

Page 8 of 10
14:21:29 14:21:29 14:21:38

negotiations?

2
3
4
5 6

A.

I would be involved in discussions with the

legislative staff, yes.

,
Q.
A. What types of discussions? Usually around, as I said, usually technical staff understand 14: 21: 41 14:21:44 14:21:51 14:21:56 14:22:03 14:22:06 14:22:09 14:22:13 14:22:15 14:22:25 14:22:28 14:22:31 14:22:32 14:22:36 14:22:39 14:22:50 14:22:55 14:23:00 14:23:03 14:23:18 14:23:26 14:23:29

assistance, helping, you know,

7

perhaps, you know, effect that a certain way they want to go with a
~-

8 9

with a rate difference or

something of that, what kind of effect that it was going to have, how much it cost, you know, of providing technical assistance. Q. Did you or the branch have any input into just kind

10
11

12 13 14 15 16

determining whether the legislature would approve a cost of living increase in the foster care rates? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.

No.
Do you know why not? That's not our role. Do you know whose role it was? Primarily agency and the Governor's office. By agency, you mean Health and -Agency secretary. Okay. Well, while we're on the subject of Are

17
18 19 20 21

A.
Q.

22
23 24 25

rates, let's talk about foster care payments.

you familiar with the term foster care maintenance payments?

100
Veritext National Deposition & Litigation Services 866 299-5127

Case 3:07-cv-05086-WHA
1

Document 68-13

Filed 09/11/2008

Page 9 of 10
14:26:51 14:26:55 14:26:56 14:27:12 14:27:13 14:27:18 14:27:23

A.

What -- there is statute that defines how

2

rates are set. Q. A. Q. So they set rates according to the' statute. Correct. Do you know whether the foster care rate

3
4
5

6
7

branch had any input into the rates mandated by statute? MR. PRINCE: THE WITNESS: our role. Q. MS. MARSHACK: I believe you answered it with Objection, asked and answered. I've answered that in terms of

8
9
10
11

14:27:24 14:27:26 14:27:28 14:27:30 14:27:31 14:27:36 14:27:38 14:27:42 14:27:45 14:27:48 14:27:59 14:28:01 14:28:04 14:28:31 14:28:34 14:28:36

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

respect to the Child and Youth Permanency Branch.

A.

And I would say each branch has same, you We

know, that's basically our responsibility. don't process. Q.

we don't negotiate directly the budget We provide technical assistance. So then who would have input into the foster

care maintenance payments rates? A. Q. Agency and Governor's office. So if the Foster Care Audits and Rates Branch

or the Child Youth and Permanency Branch believe that rates should be increased, about it? MR. PRINCE: Objection, calls for speculation You may could you do anything

14:28:38 14:28:45 103

and is hypothetical, may be argumentative.

Veritext National Deposition & Litigation Services
866299-5127

Case 3:07-cv-05086-WHA
1 answer.

Document 68-13

Filed 09/11/2008

Page 10 of 10
14:28:50

2
3
4
5

THE WITNESS:

You know, I don't know how a it's a -- how

14:28:51 14:28:52 14:28:56 14:28:59 14:29:02 14:29:06 14:29:08 14:29:12 14:29:15 14:29:21 14:29:28 14:29:38 14:29:40 14:29:42 14:29:45

branch believes because it's not does -- I don't get that.

A branch believes that something should happen. chief? Q. Are you saying an individual or the branch I'm not sure what you're saying. MS. MARSHACK: Okay. Well, let's take for

6
7

8
9

example Exhibit 22, the foster and adopted recruitment and retention reports. If through a

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21

report it became -- it informed the branch that raises rates might help our permanency goals, would you be able -- would the branch be able to communicate that to the legislature? A. Q. A. name? We would communicate it to our director. John -- someone like John Wagner. Someone like John Wagner, right. What's his name? MS. DAVIS: THE WITNESS: don't know him. Q. MS. MARSHACK: I'm just trying to distinguish John Wagner. He came in after I left. So I Is that his

14:29:51 14:29:55 14:29:58 14:29:59 14:30:01 14:30:01 14:30:04 14:30:08 14:30:12 104

22
23 24 25

between him and someone in Mary Ault's position. A. She was the deputy. We reported to the

deputy, deputy reports to the director.

Veritext National Deposition & Litigation Services 866299-5127