Free Response to Motion - District Court of Colorado - Colorado

Case 1:03-cv-02485-MSK-PAC

Document 345-33

Filed 02/16/2006

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Alfred Sanford 11/9/2005 Camile Melonakis-Kurz, et al. v. Heartland Home Finance, Inc.

Page 1

1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO
2 3

4 CAMILLE MELONAKIS-KURZ,

etc., et al.,

5

Plaintiffs,
6

vs.
7

Case No. 03-CV-2485 (MSK/PAC)

HEARTLAND HOME FINANCE,
8

INC. ,

9

Defendant.

10

13

12 - - - - -

11 THE DEPOSITION OF ALFRED SANFORD
WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 9, 2005

14 The videotaped deposition of ALFRED SANFORD,
15 called by the Defendant for examination pursuant to 16 the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, taken before 17 me, the undersigned, Darlene Vance, Registered

18 Professional Reporter and Notary Public within and
19 for the State of Ohio, taken at the offices of Cady 20

21 Reporting Services, 1225 Illuminating Building,
22

2 3 C level and, 0 hi 0 , c omm en c i n gat 1 1 : 5 9 a. m., the day
24

25 and date above set forth.
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Alfred Sanford 11/9/2005 Camille Melonakis-Kurz, et al. v. Heartland Home Finance, Inc.

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1

Q

What iS your current employment?
Heartland Home Finance.
And wha t do you do for Heartland Home Finance?

2 3
4

A
Q

A
Q

Senior loan officer.
And who is your direct supervisor?
My manager is Daryl Boehmke.

5
6 7
8

A
Q

Now, if I understand it, you have been employed
off and on with Heartland Finance over a period
of time. When was your first employment wi th
Heartland Home Finance?

9

10 11
12
A
Q

Okay.

I believe it was in 2001.

And what did you do for them at that time?

13
14

A

At that time, I was a -- what we would call a

telemarketer.
Q

15

At what point did you become a loan officer?
In 2002.

16
17 18

A
Q

I'd like to first start by talking about the

job of loan officer.
A
Q

Had you been a loan

19

officer at other companies?

20 21
22

Yes.
What are the name of some of those other
companies where you've been a loan officer?

23
24

A

Nationwide Mortgage Company is the only other

company.
Q

25

And when were the dates of your employment wi th

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1

Nationwide?
A
Q

2
3
4

That was in 2004, I believe.

Now, have you had other managers besides Daryl
Boehmke at Heartland?

5
6 7
8

A
Q

Yes, first manager there was Judy Engelhart.

Okay. And who else?
Those was the only two managers as far as loan

A

officer.
Q

9

Approximately from when to when was Daryl
Boehmke your manager?

10 11
12
A

Okay, I've been wi th Daryl Boehmke abou t a

year, about close to a year now.
Q

13
14

And Judy Engelhart?
I was wi th Judy maybe close to two years.

A
Q

15

Al, tell me, if you would, about your hours of
work at Heartland.

16
17

A
Q

Okay.

When you say hours, okay

18

Tell me -- describe for me when you normally
come into work, when you normally leave, how
many hours on average you work in a day.

19

20
21 22 23
24
Q

A

My hours is a lot different from a lot of loan
officers, the average loan officer.

Okay. Okay.

Let's talk about you first, then we can

talk about the average loan officer.
A

25

I would maybe sometimes come in at 9: 00
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Alfred Sanford 11/9/2005 Camile Melonakis-Kurz, et al. v. Heartland Home Finance, Inc.

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and sometimes I would leave at maybe 12: 00; and

2 3
4

then I would come back and then sometime I
would stay until 9: 00, 9: 00 at night, or 8: 00

depending.

But that

those would always

5 6 7
8

change in regards to as far as doctor's

appointments.

My wife, she was very will for

the last three to four years, so I would often

leave work to take her to the hospi tal to her
appointments because she doesn't drive.
So it

9

10

would vary.

On average week -- some weeks, I

11
12 13
14
Q

might get 30 hours, some weeks I might get 40,

some I may only get 20, depends on what I had
going on in my life at that time.

And what, if any, static did Heartland give you
about these varying hours?

15

16
17 18

A

Well, with Judy Engelhart, Miss Judy -- with
Judy, I never had any problems.
The only thing

that she required me, when I was there, to do

19

my job. And she was very accommodating as far
as my medical reasons.
I only have one eye,

20 21
22

I'm a disabled veteran, so I had a lot of

I

had to go to a lot of appointments for my eye

23
24

during the weeks and so forth.
her to the doctor.

My wife has a

very serious disease, so I used to have to take
Plus she had a couple

25

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team at any time at Heartland?
A
Q

2 3
4

Yes.
And when, if ever, did you ever see him on

Saturday?
MS. FISHER:
Obj ect to the

5 6
7
8

to the extent it calls for speculation.
can go ahead and answer.
MR. CARR:

You

He can

9

testify to what he saw.
A

10 11
12

Mr. Ziemak? Never.
when I was there.

Not to my knowledge, not

Q

You mentioned a moment ago how Judy Engelhart
was very accommodating wi th respect to your

13
14

flexible hours and your situation.
A
Q

15

Yes.
You didn't comment on Daryl Boehmke and how he
has reacted to it?

16
17

18

A

Oh, Daryl? Daryl -- well, really, right now,
you know, I told him I had thing s to do, you
know, they accommoda te me, you know.

19

20 21
22
Q

Did ei ther one of them at any time ever say to
you -- what, if anything, did they say to you
about working 40 hours?

23
24
A

Well, with Daryl, it's a standing

it's a

25

standing rule in the office where we work at

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Alfred Sanford 11/9/2005 Camille Melonakis-Kurz, et al. v. Heartland Home Finance, Inc.

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where I work a t now.

Page 13

It's a different

2
3
4

location.

Where if you have 40 hours -- if you
On

have -- like, I'll give you a good example.

Thursdays, if you've got 38 hours in, you only

5
6 7
8
Q

work two hours on Friday, and tha t 's it. have to leave. He automatically puts you of the office.

You

out

Well, from -- say, from 2002 forward, was there
any other policy besides that one in terms of

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10
11 12
A
Q

working hours?
40 hours a week.

40 hours a week, as in
You know, they wanted to you work 40 hours a

13
14

A

week.
Q

15

Did they want you to work more than 40 hours a

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17
A
Q

week?
No, it was always 40 hours a week.

18

Okay.

Talking about other people on Saturday,

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did you ever -- was Sharon Fleck part of your

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22 23
24
A
A
Q

group? She was not, was she? No. No, she was on another floor.
Would you have visited other floors on a
Saturday to see what was going on?
Sometimes, because the maj ori ty of the time she

25

have -- they didn't have keys to get into the

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Alfred Sanford 11/9/2005 Camile Melonakis-Kurz, et al. v. Heartland Home Finance, Inc.

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like I said though -MR. CARR:

2 3
4

And that iS

all you're entitled to.
MS. FISHER:

Please stop
You started

5 6
7
8

interrupting me.
MR . CARR:

it, go ahead.
MS. FISHER:
MR. CARR:

Are you done?

9

10
11 12 13
14

MS. FISHER:

Yeah. Okay.

You

don't scare me.

I already told you tha t.

Anyway, my objection is that for all future
deponents, we're going to instruct them not to answer your questions relating to this type of
exhibi t unless these documents are produced to

15

16
17 18

us.

MR. CARR: Then we'll be
before the magistrate. Your obj ection is noted

19

and we'll be before the magistrate on that.
Q

20

Go ahead, Al.

That does refresh your

21
22 23
24
A
Q

recollection?
Oh, yes.
We've marked that as Defense Exhibit 3.
I know these names.

A
Q

25

Okay.

Having had your recollection refreshed,

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1

that looks accurate to you?
A
Q

2 3
4

Yes.
So the document speaks for itself at this

point, but does that sound right, the numbers I
came up wi th? I'm not holding you to exact
numbers, but 52 out of 123 brokered?
A
Q

5
6 7
8

Yes.

I'm looking at the years of them, yes.

You started to talk about this a little bit.
Tell me what would cause you to broker a loan.

9

10 11
12

A

Well, for one thing, the customers. We get a
customer -- me, myself, you see, I couldn't see

giving a customer a nine percent rate when they

13
14

qualify for a SiX percent rate. Again, put a

li t tle old lady in a position where she will
lose her home. You know, that's not the way we

15

16
17 18

were trained. We just weren't trained that
way.
Q

If a customer qualifies for it, you give

it to them.

19

Um-hum.

And so, then, what would -- so what

20
21
22

would cause -- I don't want to put words in
your mouth, but would cause you then to go outside the Heartland family of offerings to go
to another lender?
A
Q

23
24

What would cause me

25

Yeah, what considerations came into play when

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1

amount of paperwork that's invol ved. And they
have to basically get it checked off.

2

3
4

Normally, the manager checks off the paperwork
before any package goes to a customer.

You've

5
6 7
8
Q

got state specific documents and other
documents that have to be in there.

When, if ever, did these loan officers ask you
where they should broker a loan?

9

A

They'll ask me if it's -- like, different

10 11
12

products, like 125 percent, and I would tell

them the best brokers to use, that we basically
-- that I've used in the past.
Q

13
14

Can you describe for me how you think that you

add value or help the customers that call you
or talk to you?
A

15

16
17 18

Well, I give the customer -- I treat the
customer like they were -- like I would want to

be trea ted.

I make sure that I get them the

19

best product out there, save them the most
amount of money, and that they'll come back to

20
21 22 23
24

me, or they'll give me a referral, they'll tell

a friend or family member. A lot of my
business is due to referrals.
I have customers

right now, that every two years they come back

25

to me to refinance. And in this business,

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that's crucial.
Q

2 3
4

They come back to you personal, you, Al

Sanford?
A
Q

Oh, yes.
And what percentage of your business would you

5 6 7
8

say that is?
A

Oh, that's a lot.

That's a lot.

I would say

maybe 20, 30 percent.
Q

9

And wha t, if anything, do you think tha t has to

10 11
12
A

do with how you treated them the first time

around?
If you treat the customer good, you give them a
good product, they'll come back.
Q

13
14

Can you give any examples that come to your

15

head right now, specific people that are return

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17 18
A

customers?

Oh, sure. he for

I've got -- one customer, he works
works for the Times.
I did his loan;

19

he was over in India somewhere, Pakistan, and

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21
22

he had to re finance.

So I refinanced him from
He called me a year

all the way over there.

and a half later, Al, I need some money to do
an addi tion to my house.

23
24

I did it for him

again.
I have another young lady in Virginia,

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she owns three homes.

I refinance her every

2
3
4
Q

two years.

I just got through refinancing her,

all three homes, every two years.

What was your understanding of the draw program
for -- at Heartland -- or what iS your

5
6 7
8

understanding of the draw program?
A

Well, you -- if you don't close any loans, you
get what they call a draw.
you get tha t draw.

Okay? That draw

9

Tha t 's to keep you wi th

10 11
12

some money in your pocket so you can get

backwards and forth to work. After you get the
draw -- when you close a loan, you pay back the

13
14
Q

draw.
And have you had pay periods where you didn't

15

16
17
18

A
Q

Oh, yes.

Oh, . ye s .

Oh, yes.

Turning back now to the issue of hours, did you
ever hear -- do you have contact with, say, the

19 20 21
22
A
Q

regional managers and Don Flynn, the owners of
the company?

Yes.
What, if anything, have you ever heard them say
about the hours that you are supposed to work?

23
24
A
Q

It's always 40 hours, that's it.

25

And you've never heard anything different than

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identification as Defendant's Exhibi t 4.

Tell

Page 49

2
3
4

me, do you recognize that?
A
Q

Yes.
Is that a -- tell me, what is that document?

5
6 7
8

A

Okay.

I was receiving letters -- I had signed

up for the lawsui t, and then I got out of the
lawsui t.

So, you know, when I got a let ter, I

sent this letting them know that I no longer

9

wanted to be part of the lawsui t.
Q

10
11
12

How was this sent, was it sent regular mail or
faxed or how did you deliver it?

A
Q

I believe this was faxed.
So as we si t here today, are you suing

13
14

Heartland Home Finance?
A
Q

15

No.
What, if any, hours did you work over

16
17 18

40 in a

week?
A
Q

Over 40? None.
Well, Ms. Fisher iS sitting right here.
Do you

19

20 21 22
A
Q

consider her to be your attorney?

No, I don't have an attorney, really.
You don't have an attorney?
I don't need an attorney, no.

23
24

A
Q

Well, do you consider Ms. Fisher to have ever

25

been your attorney?
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nobody would be coming in here gi ving

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4
Q

depositions like that.
Like what, what are you specifically referring

to?
A
Q

5
6 7
8

Overtime and all the nonsense.

Well, why do you call it nonsense? Because, you know, the environment of the

A

company iS, you know, just -- at least with my

9

tenure wi th Judy and us, we didn't have those
kinds of problems, people was always talking
abou t

10 11
12

you know, they had to work long hours
I f anything, we were pret ty much

or anything.
laid back.
Q

13
14

What, if any, contacts did you have with other

15

teams?
A

16
17 18

Oh, I saw them constantly. We would go out to
-- on Fridays to different clubs, and we had
different events that the office did -- you
know, would sponsor, boat trips and stuff like

19

20
21
22
Q

that. And I didn't see any -- why they would
be so angry.

Anything else that serves as a basis for your
observations about the other teams?

23
24
A

A couple -- a couple of them that I worked
wi th -- I worked wi th some of them, you know,

25

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A
Q

The manager always said 40 hours.

2
3
4

Are you aware of any loan officers working more

than 40 hours on your team? I know the other
teams were on different floors.
A
Q

5 6
7
8

No, not to my knowledge.

Were you keeping their time?

A

No, you asked me did I know. Not to my
knowledge, I didn't know.

9

Q

But you weren't keeping their time?

10

A
Q

No.
You weren't the timekeeper assigned in the

11
12

office?
A
Q

13
14

Oh, no.

Oh, no.

So it's possible, then, they could have been

15

working overtime hours that you're not aware

16
17

of?
A

It's possible.

Not too likely, though, because

18

I'm usually the first one there and I'm usually
the last one to leave.
Q

19

20
21 22 23
24

You don't know when they're out on

appointments?
A
Q

That's true.
Isn't it true that all of your leads were

supposed to be sent through Heartland's bank
first, and then if they were rejected, you

25

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