Free Response to Cross Motion [Dispositive] - District Court of Federal Claims - federal

Case 1:01-cv-00201-VJW

Document 173-6

Filed 05/26/2006

Page 1 of 28

00001 1 IN THE UNITED STATES COURT OF FEDERAL CLAIMS 2 3 CAROL AND ROBERT TESTWUIDE, ) et al., ) 4 ) Plaintiffs, ) 5 ) v. ) NO. 01-201L 6 ) Judge Victor J. Wolski THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, ) 7 ) Defendant. ) 8 9 10 11 DEPOSITION UPON ORAL EXAMINATION OF HERBERT A. STOKELY 12 TAKEN ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANT 13 14 Virginia Beach, Virginia 15 July 25, 2005 16 17 18 Appearances: 19 HOFHEIMER/FERREBEE, P.C. 20 By: KRISTEN D. HOFHEIMER, ESQUIRE And 21 QUINN, GORDON & WOLF

Stokely, Herk 07.25.05

Page 1

Case 1:01-cv-00201-VJW

Document 173-6

Filed 05/26/2006

Page 2 of 28

00005 1 a number of legal matters in which I gave depositions, but I 2 don't remember them very well. 3 Q. And what Navy facility? 4 A. Naval Aviation Depot in Norfolk, now closed as a 5 result of a BRAC decision. 6 Q. And were you stationed at Norfolk? 7 A. I was a civilian manager. 8 Q. And have you ever been in the Navy before? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Can you tell me about your Navy career? 11 A. I went through college on the Holloway plan. I 12 went to flight training after college, became a Naval 13 aviator, left active duty in the Navy after my obligation 14 expired, and flew in the Navy Reserves about four years 15 after that. 16 Q. Can you give me the time frames of when you first 17 joined when you went to college? 18 A. Went to college in 1954, graduated in 1958, went 19 to flight training that year. 20 Q. In 1958? 21 A. Uh huh.

Stokely, Herk 07.25.05
22 Q. Where was your flight training?

Page 5

Case 1:01-cv-00201-VJW
00006 1 Q. Were you flying planes between '59 and '63? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What planes were you flying? 4 A. A large number. Do you want a list of all of 5 them. 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. Okay. My primary aircraft was H-34. I flew the

Document 173-6

Filed 05/26/2006

Page 3 of 28

8 H-19, the H-25, H-13, T-1A, TC-45, as pilot in command. I 9 flew in other aircraft as participant but not as pilot in 10 command. 11 Q. What other aircraft did you participate in but 12 not command? 13 A. S-2 -- I remember the old designations. I can't 14 remember the new ones. The old designation was the AD. And 15 what did that become? We'll have to go with the AD. They 16 changed designations from the Navy designations to Air Force 17 compatible division so that HSS2N became the HS -- H-34, and 18 things like that. So I remember the old designation better. 19 Grumman Albatross. I can't remember what the Navy called 20 that. DC-3, C-47. That's probably about it. 21 Q. And you said you were active duty in Rhode Island

Stokely, Herk 07.25.05
22 in '59 and you left active duty in '63?

Page 6

Case 1:01-cv-00201-VJW
00007 1 at Rhode Island in '59. 2 A. I got out of the Navy in Rhode Island in 1963. I

Document 173-6

Filed 05/26/2006

Page 4 of 28

3 flew helicopters commercially for two years. 1965 I went to 4 work for the Naval Aviation Depot as an aeronautical 5 engineer. 6 Q. So from '63 to '65 is when you flew commercial 7 helicopters? 8 A. Uh huh. 9 Q. Where did you fly out of? 10 A. In Rhode Island first and here in Norfolk second. 11 Q. Who was your employer? 12 A. Copters Unlimited in Rhode Island. And Colonial 13 Helicopters in Norfolk. 14 Q. And then '65 you came to Norfolk? 15 A. I came here in '63. I flew commercially in Rhode 16 Island the rest of 1963 after I got out of the Navy, and 17 then I came here the end of the year in 1963, and went to 18 work for Colonial Helicopters and essentially worked for 19 them off and on until I went to work for the Navy as an 20 engineer in 1965. 21 Q. How long were you an engineer for the Navy?

Stokely, Herk 07.25.05
22 A. 26 years. Retired in 1991.

Page 7

Case 1:01-cv-00201-VJW
00009 1 Q. What types of aircraft did you work on? 2 A. Very wide range of aircraft. 3 You want another list? 4 Q. Yes, please. 5 A. My primary responsibilities when I first got 6 there were on the F-9. Later the F-8. A long period of 7 responsibilities on the F-8. Later the A-6. And then my

Document 173-6

Filed 05/26/2006

Page 5 of 28

8 unit shepherded the F-14 through its entire development and 9 acceptance and on through its service in the Navy until it 10 was moved to another facility when ours closed. So I 11 essentially had experience with most of the development and 12 service life of the F-14s. Also worked on a lot of other 13 planes off and on. When they were damaged and they were at 14 our facility we would often be called to come up with repair 15 procedures. S-2, P-2, C-118, C-54, C-47. Oh, lots of 16 airplanes. I can't remember all the airplanes that were 17 broken that we had to fix. 18 Q. Are you currently employed? 19 A. No. I'm retired. 20 Q. And do you live in Virginia Beach? 21 A. Yes.

Stokely, Herk 07.25.05
22 Q. Where do you live?

Page 9

Case 1:01-cv-00201-VJW
00010 1 A. 23451, same as here. 2 Q. How long have you lived there? 3 A. I moved into that house in 1967. 4 Q. Did you live anywhere else in Virginia Beach 5 before this address? 6 A. Yes. I lived in the Witchduck Point area and I

Document 173-6

Filed 05/26/2006

Page 6 of 28

7 lived at the north end for short periods of time. The north 8 end would be 88th Street, and the Witchduck Point area, 9 Richardson Road. That's your rentals before I bought my 10 house. 11 Q. Why did you move to Horseshoe Circle? 12 A. It was a house that I liked and that I could 13 afford. I was determined to buy a house. Tired of renting. 14 Q. And by your estimation, how close is your home at 15 Horseshoe Circle to Naval Air Station Oceana? 16 A. Well, if you mean to the nearest edge of the 17 field or the center of the field. 18 Q. Or both. 19 A. The center of the field, about two miles. And to 20 the nearest edge of the field, something less than a mile 21 and a half.

Stokely, Herk 07.25.05
22 Q. Were you ever stationed at Oceana?

Page 10

Case 1:01-cv-00201-VJW
00011 1 reserve unit was stationed was the air station in Norfolk,

Document 173-6

Filed 05/26/2006

Page 7 of 28

2 which is not an operating base, so we were not allowed to do 3 practice flying at that base. It's a service base, and 4 practice operations are restricted there, so we did a lot of 5 practice at Oceana. 6 Q. You mentioned a short period of time at Oceana. 7 Do you remember when those time periods were? 8 A. Well, the last one was two weeks. You know the 9 reserves normally have once a year a two-week training 10 period. The last one of those was 1967. 11 Did I mention I was flying A-4s at the time? I 12 think I listed the planes that I flew when I was at Quonset 13 Point for you, but I don't think I mentioned the plane I 14 flew in the reserves, which was the A-4 and the T-1 and the 15 T-33. But during those four years or so I was in the 16 reserves operating out of Norfolk, the A-4 was my primary 17 aircraft. 18 Q. So when you were in the reserves for four years, 19 you were stationed at Norfolk, but you would spend your two 20 weeks at Oceana; is that right? 21 A. We did two of those at Oceana. We did one at

Stokely, Herk 07.25.05
22 Yuma, Arizona. We didn't always do them at Oceana, but it

Page 11

Case 1:01-cv-00201-VJW
00015 1 Q. So you are familiar with flight paths and 2 operational requirements? 3 A. Generally. 4 Q. How are you familiar with flight paths and 5 operational requirements? 6 A. Well, they changed very little since I flew 7 there. 8 Q. Are you referring to Oceana specifically? 9 A. Oceana specifically, yes. Not exclusively, but 10 specifically. 11 Q. And when you say they have changed very little

Document 173-6

Filed 05/26/2006

Page 8 of 28

12 since you have been there, are you referring to the time you 13 started flying there in the reserves in 1967? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. You mentioned you were treasurer of CCAJN, how 16 long have you been a member of CCAJN? 17 A. Since it formed. 18 Q. And when did it form? 19 A. I think it was 1996, but I'm not positive I 20 remember that clearly. 21 Q. Were you a founding member?

Stokely, Herk 07.25.05
22 A. I would say so.

Page 15

Case 1:01-cv-00201-VJW
00022 1 noise? 2 A. Yes. After the politicians were done, those who

Document 173-6

Filed 05/26/2006

Page 9 of 28

3 weren't exhausted generally went up and spoke. So -- but I 4 was not one of them. 5 Q. Who spoke? 6 A. I don't remember. 7 Q. You don't remember? 8 A. I'm sure Hal Levinson did. 9 Q. Do you remember what they said? 10 A. No. Just the same sort of things that have been 11 written I guess, although I don't remember specifically. 12 Q. We talked about flight paths earlier. Are you 13 familiar with the flight paths at Oceana? 14 A. Generally. 15 Q. How are you familiar with the flight paths? 16 A. Well, I have flown them all. And the Navy has 17 made changes. Those changes were published in the EIS, plus 18 the Navy gave us their copies of their operational 19 instructions to the pilots at Oceana. They generally define 20 their procedures that are published procedures that the 21 pilots are supposed to follow. So I had an opportunity at

Stokely, Herk 07.25.05
22 some point in the past to review those documents.

Page 22

Case 1:01-cv-00201-VJW

Document 173-6

Filed 05/26/2006

Page 10 of 28

00024 1 impact because of noise due to speed, power settings, and 2 altitudes. There are a lot of those tracks. They are 3 somewhat detailed. I believe the Navy refined a lot of 4 them, but I can't give you the specifics. 5 Q. What makes you believe the Navy has refined 6 flight paths? 7 A. Because their EIS said they have. 8 Q. Do you remember jet noise at your home? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Would you say that planes fly directly over your 11 house? 12 A. At times they do. 13 Q. Can you describe when a plane is flying around 14 your home what that's like? 15 A. Well, when they fly over my house, most 16 frequently when they are doing FCLP practice, and if I 17 happen to be working in my yard or garden at the time, I 18 wear hearing protection. You know the Mickey Mouse things 19 that people -- interesting thing to be out in your garden 20 pulling out weeds with a Mickey Mouse on, but I do that 21 because the noise is very intense.

Stokely, Herk 07.25.05
22 I have a reasonably competent sound meter, and I

Page 24

Case 1:01-cv-00201-VJW
00025 1 hearing, and I'm trying to preserve what I have left. 2 Q. Did you say you were using a sound meter? 3 A. Uh huh.

Document 173-6

Filed 05/26/2006

Page 11 of 28

4 Q. What type of sound meter do you measure the noise 5 with? 6 A. Well, I don't remember the make and model of it, 7 but it's a digital sound meter that seems to be quite 8 capable and consistent. A little handheld battery powered 9 unit. 10 Q. And it's something that you purchased? 11 A. Yes. I bought it. 12 Q. Have you taken pictures of planes flying in or 13 around your house? 14 A. Videos. 15 Q. Videos. What time of day do you think the planes 16 fly over your house? 17 A. They normally start up about 7 in morning. You 18 can hear their engines starting. Somewhere between 7 and 8 19 they begin their routine operations, and generally continue 20 operating until about 11 at night. After that the routine 21 operations seem to settle down.

Stokely, Herk 07.25.05
22 I believe after 11 o'clock at night they use the

Page 25

Case 1:01-cv-00201-VJW

Document 173-6

Filed 05/26/2006

Page 12 of 28

00026 1 11 at night, depending on the weather and the wind direction 2 so on and so forth, the planes will often be over my house, 3 or nearby. On the other hand, if the wind is from another 4 direction, they are over other people's houses. 5 Q. Have you ever been woken up at night by the jets? 6 A. I'm a very good sleeper. I do often defer my 7 bedtime until they quiet down because it is disturbing to 8 try to go to sleep when they are flying, so I would normally 9 try to go to sleep after 11. If I did need to go to sleep 10 earlier, the answer to your question is yes, it has 11 disturbed me. If not impossible. 12 Q. To fall asleep? 13 A. When the planes are directly overhead during 14 FCLP. 15 Q. Do you know the plaintiffs in this case? 16 A. Hal Levinson told me that he was a plaintiff. 17 Other than that, no, I don't. Or I don't know who they are. 18 So I may know them, but I don't know who they are. 19 Q. Do you know where Mr. Levinson lives? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Would you say you are familiar with his property?

Stokely, Herk 07.25.05
22 A. Yes.

Page 26

Case 1:01-cv-00201-VJW

Document 173-6

Filed 05/26/2006

Page 13 of 28

00030 1 environmental impact statement. Those were our big agenda 2 issues as CCAJN. 3 Q. What do you mean by lobby? 4 A. Primarily communicating with the Navy to ask them 5 to -- and the politicians actually -- to ask them to see 6 that an outlying field was included in the EIS. 7 Q. When you say EIS, which EIS are you referring to? 8 A. The more recent one. 9 Q. And when CCAJN was first formed, the agenda? 10 A. It was the former EIS. 11 Q. And that was before the F/A-18s came to Oceana? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. So would you say that -- how would you describe 14 the noise environment at that time? 15 MR. QUINN: At what time? I'm sorry. I don't 16 understand the question. 17 BY MS. ACOCK: 18 Q. Well, do you understand the question? 19 A. Would you repeat it? 20 Q. Sure. We have talked about CCAJN's agenda before 21 the F/A-18s came. That was dealing with the previous EIS,

Stokely, Herk 07.25.05
22 and I asked you how would you describe the noise environment

Page 30

Case 1:01-cv-00201-VJW
00031 1 up to the first Gulf war. And it was like being in a war 2 zone day and night. After that, not long after that, the

Document 173-6

Filed 05/26/2006

Page 14 of 28

3 Navy began talking about bringing the F-18s to Oceana. And 4 with that experience under our belt a lot of us felt that it 5 would go back to being extremely unpleasant. 6 Q. The work up to the first Gulf war, when was that? 7 A. 1991. As I remember. 8 Q. Do you remember what planes were flying? 9 A. A-6s, F-14s primarily. Although during a work up 10 they often bring in entire flight groups so there would be 11 other aircraft involved. 12 Q. How would you describe the noise? You mentioned 13 it was like being in a war zone. What do you mean? 14 A. It was continuous and very, very loud. Very 15 intrusive. It essentially dominated everything for those 16 who were near it. 17 Q. When you say those who were near it, you mean 18 near the base? 19 A. Or near the flight path, yes. 20 Q. What was the experience like at your home? 21 A. Well, you couldn't talk to people. You couldn't

Stokely, Herk 07.25.05
22 talk on the phone. You couldn't watch television. You

Page 31

Case 1:01-cv-00201-VJW
00032 1 in and day out. It was just for a few months. 2 Q. A few months in 1991? 3 A. I believe it was 1991. 4 Q. Would you say that your experience with the jet 5 noise now is similar to 1991? 6 A. At times, yes. 7 Q. What do you mean at times? 8 A. Primarily when they are conducting FCLP

Document 173-6

Filed 05/26/2006

Page 15 of 28

9 operations, and when the wind is tending towards the east, 10 which is the pattern that brings the planes over and around 11 and near my home. 12 Q. When the planes are coming over or near your 13 home, do you know which runway they are using at Oceana? 14 A. Yes. That would be runway 5. 15 Although other runways, particularly 32, brings 16 them over my home on take off. But the FCLP pattern over my 17 home is when they are using runway 5. 18 Q. Did you fly FCLPs when you were a pilot? 19 A. Oh, yes. 20 Q. Did you ever fly FCLPs out of Fentress? 21 A. That's the only place I have ever flown them.

Stokely, Herk 07.25.05
22 Q. We talked earlier about changes you believe the

Page 32

Case 1:01-cv-00201-VJW
00033 1 A. That the Navy has actually -- changes that the 2 Navy has actually attempted to implement? 3 Q. Yes. 4 A. Well, I talked about the departure. I didn't 5 mention the hush house, did I? 6 Q. No. 7 A. Before the hush house was built, the Navy at

Document 173-6

Filed 05/26/2006

Page 16 of 28

8 Oceana did all of the high powered engine testing outside on 9 the field. Sometimes those high powered engine tests would 10 go for long periods of time and, depending on the 11 atmospheric conditions, the noise from those was very 12 intrusive and very prolonged. 13 The Navy eventually did build the hush house at 14 Oceana, and now they test the engines in an environment in a 15 very big building with a big muffler that the airplane 16 discharges its engines into, and that has made a big 17 difference. 18 Q. How do you know that's what they do at the hush 19 house at Oceana? 20 A. I'm familiar with hush houses. 21 I'm not sure I understand your question.

Stokely, Herk 07.25.05
22 Q. Are you familiar with the hush house at Oceana?

Page 33

Case 1:01-cv-00201-VJW

Document 173-6

Filed 05/26/2006

Page 17 of 28

00042 1 would be quieter. If they stopped using the overhead break 2 and just came in straight instead of circling over the 3 community. 4 Q. Is that a regulation that they have or a 5 regulation you would like to see? You would propose? 6 A. If they did FCLPs at more remote locations 7 instead of at Oceana that would be a good regulation. 8 Q. That would be one that you propose? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Are you aware of any of the other Oceana's 11 regulations that you would like to see followed? 12 A. None that come to mind right now. 13 Q. You mentioned earlier that you had performed 14 sound readings at your home? 15 A. (Deponent nodded head.) 16 Q. When did you start doing that? 17 A. When we were in the work up to the first EIS, the 18 F-18 C and D EIS. 19 Q. What year was that? 20 A. I think it was '96. I don't remember clearly, 21 but I think it was '96. It was in that time frame. Not

Stokely, Herk 07.25.05
22 long after CCAJN formed.

Page 42

Case 1:01-cv-00201-VJW

Document 173-6

Filed 05/26/2006

Page 18 of 28

00043 1 Q. Can you describe how they have changed over time? 2 A. There are more single noise events that are 3 louder. 4 Q. What do you mean by single noise event? 5 A. That one airplane going overhead making its own 6 noise. 7 Q. And can you give me a comparison of sound 8 readings of a single noise event in '96 and a single noise 9 event now? 10 A. Before the F-18s came, it was very unusual to see 11 a sound reading much over 100 decibels. After the F-18s 12 came, it was quite common to experience sound readings at my 13 house well above 100 decibels. 14 Q. How much above 100 decibels? 15 A. The highest one I have read was 117. So they 16 would fall in the range between 100 and 117. 17 Q. Have you conducted sound readings anywhere else 18 besides your home? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Where else? 21 A. Lynnhaven Mall.

Stokely, Herk 07.25.05
22 Q. Lynnhaven Mall. Are you inside the mall?

Page 43

Case 1:01-cv-00201-VJW
00045 1 anywhere else? 2 A. I don't believe so. I don't remember if I did. 3 I could have. No. 4 Q. Why are you not a plaintiff in this lawsuit? 5 A. I'm a Navy annuitant. I have had a career with

Document 173-6

Filed 05/26/2006

Page 19 of 28

6 the Navy. I'm a member of the Navy community. And I have 7 no desire to receive any money from the Navy other than my 8 annuity. 9 Q. Do you believe that your house has gone down in 10 value because of jet noise? 11 A. I have no idea. I bought any house in 1967. I 12 have no idea what impact this change would have made on the 13 value of my house. 14 Q. When did you -- from your home, when did you 15 first notice that FCLPs were being flown at Oceana? 16 A. The Navy flew FCLPs at Oceana on occasion the 17 entire time that I have lived at my house. 18 Q. Why did you ask Captain Zobol, I believe, if they 19 were moving FCLPs from Fentress to Oceana? 20 A. I asked him that question because FCLPs at Oceana 21 had been an exceptional event in the past. And at -- and in

Stokely, Herk 07.25.05
22 that time, which was between the two EISes, somewhere in

Page 45

Case 1:01-cv-00201-VJW
00049 1 A. There is no muffler except for the hush house. 2 The hush house is the muffler. 3 Q. You had mentioned earlier that you had gone to 4 school on the Holloway plan? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. What is the Holloway plan?

Document 173-6

Filed 05/26/2006

Page 20 of 28

7 A. The Navy paid my way through college. They paid 8 all of my tuitions, and I spent every summer in training, 9 and at the end of my college career when I graduated I was 10 commissioned an ensign. 11 Q. Where did you go to college? 12 A. Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, New York. 13 Q. What did you study? 14 A. Aeronautical engineering. 15 Q. Did you always know you wanted to be a pilot? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. When the planes are flying in or around your 18 home, you mentioned at the school that they flew lower. Can 19 you describe the altitude they fly in or around your home? 20 A. When they are doing FCLP, the part of the flight 21 path that is over my home is supposed to be at 1,000 feet.

Stokely, Herk 07.25.05
22 Q. How do you know that?

Page 49

Case 1:01-cv-00201-VJW
00050 1 believe. 2 Q. You say they are supposed to be at 1,000 feet. 3 Do you not think they fly at 1,000 feet? 4 A. Many of the planes come below 1,000 feet. Their 5 best training altitude, the altitude they use for a ship

Document 173-6

Filed 05/26/2006

Page 21 of 28

6 would be 600 feet. It would be unusual for them to come 7 that low but they do slip down. Quite often I see them at 8 what I would estimate to be about 800. 9 Q. Somewhere between 600 and 1,000? 10 A. Yes. There are just enough of them that fly at 11 1,000 you can really tell. 12 Q. How can you tell the difference between 600, 800, 13 or 1,000? 14 A. Well, there are two ways. One is to use my 15 experience as an observer. The other way is to, since you 16 know how long the plane is, it's fairly easy to construct a 17 small device which allows you to essentially measure the 18 length of the aircraft, the apparent length of the aircraft 19 when it's overhead to get a distance. Something about this 20 big, at about 30 inches. 21 Q. Okay. We're going to have to describe what you

Stokely, Herk 07.25.05
22 are doing for the court reporter.

Page 50

Case 1:01-cv-00201-VJW
00051 1 Q. How do you know that? 2 A. It's geometry. If the airplane is 60 feet long, 3 for small angles it's just proportionate. So 3 feet or 4 1,000 feet it's just a simple proportion.

Document 173-6

Filed 05/26/2006

Page 22 of 28

5 Q. So you would have to know how long an F/A-14 was 6 or F/A-18 was to get that calculation? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. You mentioned from your observation you can also 9 tell? 10 A. As an experienced observer of aircraft, yes. 11 Q. Do you use a landmarks around your home to do 12 that? 13 A. No. It's the apparent size of the aircraft. 14 Q. Okay. 15 Do you -- would you ever say that planes flew at 16 tree top level at your home? 17 A. Yes. When -- this is something that is a new 18 subject I haven't mentioned, but when they do air show 19 practice at Oceana, there is -- particularly during the 20 summer air show season, there are designated pilots who take 21 aircraft to air shows and put on demonstrations. Those

Stokely, Herk 07.25.05
22 pilots practice their demonstration flights at Oceana. And

Page 51

Case 1:01-cv-00201-VJW
00056 1 Q. If they are not flying FCLPs in or around your 2 home, how are they flying around your home? 3 A. Well, they still do landing practice. They do --

Document 173-6

Filed 05/26/2006

Page 23 of 28

4 pilots returning from their training missions, if they have 5 time in their schedule and sufficient fuel remaining, will 6 often do a few touch and goes at the end of their flight. 7 And Navy pilots, in essence, every landing is 8 FCLP, but they only have a limited time and a limited amount 9 of fuel, so they will make two or three or four and land. 10 And it's not like grinding around the pattern for hours as 11 it is when there's FCLP practice. 12 I'm dropping my voice. Can you hear me okay? 13 Q. When they are doing this landing practice, the 14 planes are still flying in and around your home? 15 A. Oh, yes. If they are using runway 5. 16 Q. If they are using a different runway would they 17 still be in or around your home? 18 A. No. Unless they are using runway 32 and taking 19 off, the planes leaving the base often are over my house. 20 Q. On take off? 21 A. On take off. But not in a touch and go pattern.

Stokely, Herk 07.25.05
22 Q. Your observations when they are taking off, are

Page 56

Case 1:01-cv-00201-VJW
00057 1 enough to make it clear how dramatic the difference is. 2 Q. Would you prefer that they -- you already 3 answered that. 4 A. Do you mind if I go and get a break? 5 MS. ACOCK: Oh, no. That's fine. We can take a 6 break. 7 (Recess) 8 BY MS. ACOCK: 9 Q. We were talking about the FCLPs and the landing

Document 173-6

Filed 05/26/2006

Page 24 of 28

10 practice in and around your home. Do you believe that an 11 FCLP and a touch and go are essentially the same thing? 12 A. Well, I think I made the statement that for a 13 Navy pilot every landing is FCLP. Landing on a carrier in a 14 high performance airplane is so demanding that nobody passes 15 up an opportunity to practice a carrier landing. And the 16 runway has the carrier landing device set up on it all the 17 time. And if it's not operating, the pilots would consider 18 it unusual and not a desirable situation. So the short 19 answer to your question is, yes, they are essentially the 20 same except for the duration and the intensity of the 21 operation.

Stokely, Herk 07.25.05
22 However, with that said, generally when planes

Page 57

Case 1:01-cv-00201-VJW
00058 1 time, and since the planes have to take their spacing off

Document 173-6

Filed 05/26/2006

Page 25 of 28

2 one another, they would tend to be further from my house 3 because the pattern would not have expanded so dramatically 4 beyond the one that's specified in the EIS. 5 See, patterns in the EIS are no where near my 6 home. But once you get more than a few planes in the 7 pattern, and they have to take their interval off one 8 another, the pattern expands and the next thing you know 9 it's over my house. I have even seen them substantially 10 beyond my house, especially at night. I have seen them 11 flying directly over the Virginia Beach General Hospital. 12 Q. So do you believe the patterns in the EIS are not 13 accurate? 14 A. The pattern in the EIS is highly idealized, the 15 pattern that would be flown by a single plane flown by an 16 expert pilot who observed all the approach speeds and that 17 sort of thing. The way they are idealized makes it very 18 unrealistic for real operations. However, it does make the 19 noise zones much smaller on the map. 20 Q. Why do you say that? 21 A. What?

Stokely, Herk 07.25.05
22 Q. That the flight pattern in the EIS makes the

Page 58

Case 1:01-cv-00201-VJW
00059 1 fact that the noise zones are based on the pattern in the 2 EIS, the patterns being smaller, thus the noise zones are 3 smaller.

Document 173-6

Filed 05/26/2006

Page 26 of 28

4 Q. How would you describe or compare how you think 5 the Navy actually flies to the flight patterns in the EIS? 6 A. It would be unusual, actually, for a plane to 7 actually observe the flight patterns that are in the EIS, if 8 we are talking about touch and go landing practice. 9 Keep in mind that the EIS has many flight 10 patterns in it for approaching the field, for leaving the 11 field, the box patterns for GCA training, those kind of 12 things. But if we are talking about touch and go landings, 13 the planes seldom are following the track that is 14 established in the EIS. And it's interesting too because 15 that track is what establishes both the noise zones and the 16 crash zones. 17 Q. How do you know that what the Navy actually flies 18 is different than what is in the EIS? 19 A. Well, because they are coming directly over my 20 house and beyond my house, and yet my house is something in 21 the range of a mile from the nearest flight pattern. If

Stokely, Herk 07.25.05
22 they stayed in the patterns they would never come closer to

Page 59

Case 1:01-cv-00201-VJW

Document 173-6

Filed 05/26/2006

Page 27 of 28

00062 1 A. It was CCAJN meeting with Captain Zobol and his 2 staff. 3 Q. Does CCAJN keep records of their meetings with 4 the Navy? 5 A. Well, I don't. Someone else may have, but I 6 didn't keep records of them. 7 Q. Do you know if it's the group's practice to keep 8 records of meetings? 9 A. I don't know. 10 Q. You mentioned earlier that you wear hearing 11 protection now when you are outside gardening. Have you 12 always done that? 13 A. If they are conducting FCLP. 14 Q. Other times you don't wear protection? 15 A. No. 16 Q. And that is something that you have done the 17 entire time you lived at your home? 18 A. No. 19 Q. When did you start wearing hearing protection? 20 A. When they started doing extended FCLP on a 21 routine basis at Oceana.

Stokely, Herk 07.25.05
22 Q. And I think you mentioned that there was -- it

Page 62

Case 1:01-cv-00201-VJW
00063 1 The first EIS, the one for the F-18 C and D

Document 173-6

Filed 05/26/2006

Page 28 of 28

2 coming from Cecil Field, the basis of that EIS was that only 3 occasionally FCLP would be done at Oceana. And only when it 4 was necessary for one of those exceptional reasons that I 5 mentioned. 6 There was actually a statement in the EIS that 7 said that. And the number of FCLP operations that were 8 estimated in that first EIS was something between 4 and 9 5,000 per year. 4,400, 4,500, something like that. 10 At the time that I asked Captain Zobol that 11 question, the intensity of FCLP at Oceana had increased 12 dramatically. It prompted my question. The answer Captain 13 Zobol gave us at that time was that in that particular year, 14 over 20,000 had been conducted at Oceana. 15 Q. Do you remember what year that was? 16 A. I keep telling you I don't. I'm trying to place 17 it as close as I can. 18 Q. I'm sorry? 19 A. But it was after the first EIS. It was before 20 the second. And it was not all that long after. But I do 21 remember thinking to myself when he answered the question

Stokely, Herk 07.25.05
22 about the number of EIS evolutions at Oceana -- I mean FCLP

Page 63