Free Motion in Limine - District Court of Federal Claims - federal

Case 1:98-cv-00720-GWM
Martin Devere

Document 313-3
Overgaard, AZ

Filed 04/18/2005

Page 1 of 11
February 12, 2004

Page I

PRECISION 2 3 4 THE
VS.

PINE

& TIMBER,

INC.,

Plaintiff,

UNITED

STATES, Defendant.

6 7 8 9 DEPOSITION i0 Overgaard, ii February 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 12 2004 Arizona OF MARTIN DEVERE

1111 14th Street,

Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. N.W. Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC20005

Case 1:98-cv-00720-GWM
Martin Devere

Document 313-3

Filed 04/18/2005

Page 2 of 11
February 12, 2004

Overgaard, AZ

Page 12

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

time period? A. association they would Well, yes. My agreement with the trade

when I left was that have access and they then,

for six months, as such in

to my expertise could call.

various of the starting

things deal.

That

was part was

And,

I started

-- that

in April. And in December, I started a consulting and

business still do,

and did work

for various

companies,

all over the, When

all over the country. was that December

Q.
of 19837 A.

you say December,

That's

correct. on your resume for Fort Apache that you were

Q.
chairman Company. A. Q. A. been 1991.

It mentions of the board

Timber

That's correct. When did you take that position? That was about I was on the on the nineteen, board it would have

from '91 to 2001. I was chairman. member for

The last two years Q.

board,

What did you do as a board

Fort Apache? A. Well, we were every primarily through policy. We had,

we had meetings

month

that period

Alderson Reporting Company,Inc. 1 t t 1 14th Street, N.W. Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005

Case 1:98-cv-00720-GWM
Martin Devere

Document 313-3

Filed 04/18/2005

Page 3 of 11
February 12, 2004

Overgaard, AZ

Page 13

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

and were management which

responsible

for the overall Apache Timber

policy Company, mill

part of Fort

is an all Indian-owned, Arizona,

tribal-operated

in Whiteriver, Cibecue. They tribe,

and they

have a mill at

brought

people

on outside

the because

primarily

for their

expertise.

And

I was a forester and that type

and had background that's

in sawmills up

of thing,

why I wound

on -- was on the board. Q. their Did you have any role in overseeing operations? way. We left the general but we

sawmill A.

In a policy to make

manager

the management

decisions,

kept informed personnel we would needed

all the time on all the operations, to keep above to what -- and

and what-have-you lend our expertise which

we thought as

to be done,

is one of the reasons, log clinics,

I mentioned that

earlier,

that the small I was going

type of thing

to -- we were

going

to put in a small Q. Beck Group A. Association,

log mill. that you participated for the Forest in a

It mentions sawmill Well,

study

Service.

it was for Western

Wood Products

I think.

1111 14th Street,

Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. N.W. Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC20005

Case 1:98-cv-00720-GWM
Marlin Devere

Document 313-3

Filed 04/18/2005

Page 4 of 11
February 12, 2004

Overgaard. AZ Page 15

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 Ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

correctly. Q. board So that was you and the rest of the that? members were one

that was doing A.

I believe all the board It just -- you know, of days.

there. lasted Q. together A.

that particular

just a couple

Did you have any role in putting the study? Only from the standpoint to get it organized of meeting to begin with with

the Beck people

and how it was going going

to be set up and what

was

to be done and all this. Q. Looking at the one page of the study to your report, which is the

that you've exhibit page. A. Q. the study A. was able

attached

in front

of you, could

you flip

to that

Yes. Can you identify which of the columns by Fort Apache? when I on

was the mill operated My agreement to get this

with Fort Apache, was that

study,

it was really

proprietary divulge

information,

and so I can't

which

mill they are. when Fort Apache would mills

For instance, receive that themselves,

all of the other

1111 14th Street,

Alderson Reporting Company,Inc. N.W. Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC20005

Case 1:98-cv-00720-GWM
lVlartin Devere

Document 313-3

Filed 04/18/2005

Page 5 of 11
February 12, 2004

Overgaard. AZ

Page 16

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

were them

blacked

out except since

theirs.

And when

I asked

for this, that

I was technically information, which

in their I don't know

employ,

proprietary I know

that I -- I mean, looking really

one it is by think I can

at it on here, put that

but I don't

out because

of the way I received

the information. Q. do you know study? A. Because No. Not -- I don't I've been in this that know specifically. for a long time Do you know which of the other what the other mills were mills --

on this

industry

and there Mountains,

are mills I probably

were in the Rocky which mills were used,

know

but I don't individually

know that

I could

pick

them out

as I went down through. access to the full Group study from

Do you have that was performed this one page? A. whether I don't I could

by the Beck

aside

at the

moment.

I don't

know

get it or not.

I have,

you

know -- there really

were other page

information. because it's

This was the one

the pertinent

that dealt Q.

with overrun You say it's

and recovery. a proprietary study. Is

1111 14th Street,

Alderson Reporting Company,Inc. N.W. Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC20005

Case 1:98-cv-00720-GWM
MartinDevere

Document 313-3

Filed 04/18/2005

Page 6 of 11
February 12, 2004

Overgaard, AZ Page 17 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 ii 12 13 the 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 one. and done this then? A. Q. published A. it was for Yes. So it's anywhere. No. for Only their for the participating What it members, was against as not a study that's been something that's being kept confidential,

information. a particular you were

was

to compare how the

mill doing

somebody opposed or at would

else's, to how

good

industry

was the

doing of

as a whole, thing you

least

the

industry, in. resume also

type

be involved Q. Western Your Pine and Cutter, That's What

mentions, part, sawmill

back you

under

Industries directed and

that

participated at Heber, A. Q. A. Maybe part

recovery Arizona.

studies

Williams,

correct. studies similar are you referring studies same to there? this but

We did not

mill

like way, was

done

exactly job

the

because production type the with

of my

classification to have go to

manager, And

I used we

set

up

those

of things. same the thing. Forest

would were but

through

basically

A couple Service

done

in conjunction they were

sometimes

Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. 111 t 14th Street, N.W. Suite 400 t-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, 20005 DC

Case 1:98-cv-00720-GWM Martin Devere

Document 313-3

Filed 04/18/2005

Page 7 of 11 February 2004 12,

Overgaard, AZ Page 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 study have competitors are trying Q. different the study? A. Q. gotten Yes, they would have. And so each of the participants information on their own mills would but not have, especially if they, edge you know,

to gain a little Would study

in it. a in

the Beck Group have prepared for each of the participants

on their A. results. locations,

competitors'? That's And, correct. Except for the end names and out

then,

the competitors' would have been

all of that it.

blocked

when they received Q.

And the one sheet

you attached

is part

of the end results? That's correct. We would like to get a copy of the whole is possible. Not

as you reviewed

it if that

just the one page. A. end result I will see what pages that I can do. I have the

was given whether It's detail

to me.

I don't

know, I just get the there's don't

don't

know

I'll be able to thick. in there I mean, that I

entire

study.

pretty work lot,

a lot of just

know would

mean a whole

but I probably

Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. t 11114thStreet, N.W. Suite 4001-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, 20005 DC

Case 1:98-cv-00720-GWM
Martin Devere

Document 313-3

Filed 04/18/2005

Page 8 of 11
February 12, 2004

Overgaard, AZ

Page 45

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

the small the mill

end of the logs and that would

were

that were

going

in

make it much less as they you would

precise. had, want to to

And so if I had the the individual look at. Q. information logs,

availability, that's what

Did you have available on scaling

to you logs going

of individual

into Precision A. volumes Only

Pine's -the end results particular of the total that they used.

of those When

things

Q.
that

you say the end results, to exactly?

what is it

you're A.

referring

Well, you could say I had an inventory thousand board feet of logs. And

of X, hundred they were

scaled.

That's

the information

I had.

The average I asked size

log size,

I just got from Mr. Porter. that his average Marty, log I

him what

he figured 1996.

was back

in 1995, about

He said, board

ran probably Q.

a hundred

feet.

Did he give you just

one log size across

all of his sales? A. would have I asked him what his average he was running log size

been when

in that

period, Q.

yes, and that's Could

what I received.

you have done it on a sale by sale

1111 14th Street,

Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. N.W. Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC20005

Case 1:98-cv-00720-GWM
Martin Devere

Document 313-3

Filed 04/18/2005

Page 9 of 11
February 12, 2004

Overgaard, AZ Page 46 I

i 2 3 4

basis? A. If I had the information, What information would sure. needed

Q.

you have

to do it that way? A. sales. The log scaling You'd run. have to have have say, that from those individual the sizes that they a

7 8 9 i0 II 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

would

I didn't

-- you'd that

have

to have

lot of the materials, did to put together the average sheets were.

the Forest sale

Service

timber

as to what scaling

log sizes

were

or individual what All

from those But I didn't

sales have

to know that.

the sizes was the

I had

end result. Q. going into A. Q. would have A. Q. the mill A. Part And that's what you would have the mill. Is that correct? looked at

That's correct. And, then, looked Yes. And how are the board measured? Well, they it depends on what type it is. is what Those are called measured feet coming out coming out of the mill, feet produced? you

at the board

of

of what

are producing and shop.

shop grades, in green

molding

are either

precisely.

We are selling

1111 14th Street,

Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. N.W. Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC20005

Case 1:98-cv-00720-GWM
Martin Devere

Document 313-3

Filed 04/18/2005

Page 10 of 11
February 12, 2004

Overgaard, AZ

Page 53

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

that over would some

because time, get mills

you'd

have

to do it over be.

time.

But

yeah,

it should recovery.

At least,

they because places

the same could

I hesitate and other

go up in Idaho

that would took

be a little

bit out of -- but if you and New Mexico, you're looking southern

the mills

in Arizona Utah,

Colorado,

probably

at, should

look at a similar Q. numbers Would

recovery. the WWPA Inland Rocky Mountain look at

be the best measure out what Probably that's I don't that

that you would be?

to figure A. frankly, others, Q. whether running

would

just about the only measure, today. If there's

available know

of them. out was or

What did you do to try to figure the Heber mill that Precision Pine

was comparable

to its mill

in Winslow

its mill in Eagar? A. what Just discussions mills when with Lon Porter we visited as to one. very

was in those

this

And he told me they. close to being Q.

were,

you know,

they were

the same. specific equipment

Did you discuss the mill?

that was in use at each A.

No. I did not get into

the specific

1111 14th Street,

Alderson Reporting Company,Inc. N.W. Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC20005

Case 1:98-cv-00720-GWM
Martin Devere

Document 313-3

Filed 04/18/2005

Page 11 of 11
February 12, 2004

Overgaard, AZ

Page 54

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25

equipment. Q.

Just

this

one. took his word that they

So you simply mills --

were comparable A. Q. A. just about Yeah.

-- in preparing And they would anything. is much Fort

your report? be a comparable Apache Timber mill to Company, similar pine

for instance, equipment.

larger going

but has very

If you're

to cut Ponderosa like they are, that they

in this area going using, high

for recovery

you're are

to be using say unless

the equipment you really million

got into

an extremely of

tech

operation,

and millions

dollars Q. that

invested. We've talked about a couple of things factor. I guess of the mill. would

can affect

the overrun about

broadly,

you talked What sorts

efficiency

of things

generally

affect affect A. bat,

the efficiency the overrun Well,

of the mill and,

therefore,

factor? be, right off the

part of it would how wide have

saw curve, You,

the saw is that a point

you're

using. returns.

again,

of diminishing then they don't

If they

get too thin,

cut good lumber.

1111 14th Street,

Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. N.W. Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC20005