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00001 1 2 3 LAUDES CORPORATION, 4 5 vs. Plaintiff,

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IN THE UNITED STATES COURT OF FEDERAL CLAIMS

6 THE UNITED STATES, 7 8 Case No. 97-4C (Judge Wheeler) 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Reported by: Susan J. Warnick, RPR 23 24 25 Taken by the Plaintiff at OLES, MORRISON RINKER & BAKER 745 W. 4th Avenue, Suite 400 Anchorage, AK 99501 TELEPHONIC DEPOSITION OF TED NORDGAARDEN Taken June 5, 2008 Commencing at 10:00 a.m. Volume I - Pages 1 - 90, inclusive Defendant. ____________________________________

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00002 1 A P P E A R A N C ES 2 For Plaintiff: 3 4 5

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GARVEY SCHUBERT BARER BY: Mark G. Jackson 1191 Second Avenue, Suite 1800 Seattle, WA 98101-2939 (206) 464-3939

6 For Defendant: 7 8 9 10 11 Taken by: Susan J. Warnick, RPR 12 13 BE IT KNOWN that the aforementioned deposition was taken 14 at the time and place duly noted on the title page, before 15 Susan J. Warnick, Registered Professional Reporter and 16 Notary Public within and for the State of Alaska. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 TRIAL ATTORNEY COMMERCIAL LITIGATION BRANCH CIVIL DIVISION DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE BY: J. Reid Prouty 8th Floor, 1100 L Street Washington, d.C., 20530 (202)305-7586

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(Exhibits 1 through63.) PROCEEDINGS TED NORDGAARDEN,

4 called as a witness herein, being first duly sworn to 5 state the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth 6 by the Notary, testified under oath as follows: 7 EXAMINATION

8 BY MR. JACKSON: 9 Q Ted, thank you for taking the time out to do this. I

10 do appreciate it. I know it was kind of a hassle getting 11 into Anchorage. 12 During the course of the deposition this morning

13 for you, I'm going to ask you a series of questions. If 14 at any time you don't understand my question, please tell 15 me and I will try to rephrase it. 16 You will note during the deposition that I will

17 stumble over my tongue repeatedly, ask questions that are 18 unintelligible and I will mispronounce things, so please 19 tell me and I'll fix it. Okay? 20 A 21 Q Certainly. One other thing, because we're on the telephone and

22 not doing a video or in-person deposition, we obviously -23 and the court reporter needs this for the same reason -24 we can't recognize, hear or understand head shakes or 25 nods.

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Correct. So we need verbal responses. Yes. Understood. So with that, we will get ready and start then. Could you please state your full name and spell

6 your last name for the record. 7 A 8 Q 9 A 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 A Ted Gilbert Nordgaarden, N-o-r-d-g-a-a-r-d-e-n. And are you currently employed? Yes, sir, I am. And with whom? The state of Alaska as a state trooper. How long have you been doing that? Approximately a year and a half. Hired 25 February

14 of '07. 15 Q Now, as you know, the reason I requested your

16 deposition was to talk about your particular time that you 17 spent in Iraq; correct? 18 A 19 Q Yes, sir. So can you tell me when you arrived in Iraq as an

20 employee? 21 A 22 Q 23 A September 11, 2003. And by whom were you employed? I was employed by SAIC, under the ICITAP Department

24 of Justice program. 25 Q And is that an acronym, ICITAP?

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International Criminal Investigation Training

2 Assistance Program. It's the federal program that we were 3 hired under to work at the academy -- er -- actually, 4 initially as advisors to the Ministry of Interior Police. 5 Q 6 A 7 Q When you say "the academy", what are you referring? The Baghdad Police Academy. We have seen acronyms PSA; are you familiar with

8 that? 9 A BPSA? Yes, I am. I'm trying to remember all the

10 acronyms. Originally It was Baghdad Police -- I'm 11 sorry -- Baghdad Public Safety Academy, was the initial -12 was the initial acronym or title of the facility, and then 13 it was deemed later to become solely the police college. 14 Q 15 A So the Baghdad Police College? Yes. That was -- when I left in '05, it was the PBC.

16 As the academy role was going to be phasing out and it was 17 going to then ultimately become what the Iraqis refer to 18 as the police college. 19 Q What was the academy role that you just mentioned?

20 What do that mean? 21 A The academy role was to train, to provide basic

22 training for police candidates that were hired by the 23 Iraqis to put a police force together of approximately 24 75,000 officers for the country of Iraq. 25 Q Did that role change when it became the Baghdad

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It was going to. It had not when I left. But as I

3 understood, the title change and the role of the facility 4 was going to roll over or change that once the 75,000 was 5 reached, then the facility was going to become the police 6 college which essentially is like a four-year university 7 for police officer candidates who were hired, would then 8 become officers, lieutenants and above, kind of a 9 four-year OCS, officer candidate school. And that was 10 the -- that is what the facility originally under -11 apparently under Saddam and his regime, that is originally 12 what it was, and it was -- and that was the only place for 13 it. 14 And so once the basic recruit, the NCO, for

15 better words, was trained out in the field, they needed 16 their college back, and that was their desire, and that 17 was the direction it was headed when I left. 18 Q 19 A 20 Q And did you say you arrived in September of '02? 2003. And did you spend -- you say you left in 2005;

21 correct? 22 A 23 Q Yes, October 2005. So did you spend the entire time between September of

24 '03 and October of '05 at the Baghdad Police College, 25 Public Service Academy?

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That's where my job was, yes. What was your job while you were there? I was the logistics guy. The title varied. It could

4 have been chief. I was predominantly the sole logistics 5 guy for the whole facility. 6 Q 7 A And what were your duties as the sole logistics guy? It would be, you know, forecasting requirements for

8 students and staff. Preparing scopes of work for that, 9 for the purchase, proposing a scope of materials, finding 10 vendors, submitting those scopes of work, getting -11 coordinating with the Ministry of Interior personnel to 12 get the funds, and then purchasing and distributing, 13 stores, the overall logistics operation of that. 14 And later on, as larger contracts were obtained

15 for the academy, I became the contracting office 16 representative for most of the contracts that were there, 17 that applied to the academy. 18 Q 19 A What do you mean by "larger contracts"? The life support contract. Primarily, there was two;

20 the life support contract for the academy and the 21 construction of the academy that Parsons Delaware had 22 obtained. Those were the two primary contracts that were 23 in operation or under construction or being done while I 24 was there. 25 Q And we're going to start with the life support

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00008 1 contract in just a moment. We will come back to those. 2 Did you do anything preparation for the

3 deposition today? 4 A 5 Q 6 A 7 Q 8 A 9 Q No. Talk to anybody? No. Review any documents? No. So let's talk about the life support contract for a

10 few moments. Actually, for a long few moments. 11 A 12 Q Okay. What was your first involvement with the life support

13 contract? 14 A As I recall, I worked on coming up with helping work

15 out the requirements of what we needed for life support, 16 like a scope of works and materials, what we would ask the 17 companies to provide us that would bid the project. So I 18 worked on that with the other logistics people that were 19 in the Green Zone or with the Ministry of Interior and 20 procurement. 21 Q 22 A With whom did you work doing what you just described? I don't recall. I see faces, but the names are -- a

23 majority of the work -- the difficulty in all of this, 24 really, for me was is by the time I was working on that, I 25 was physically living at and working out of my office at

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00009 1 the police college, and the insurgent activity had ramped 2 up significantly, so travel between the Green Zone and the 3 police academy was out in the Red Zone, if you want to 4 call it that, out in town. So travel back and forth just 5 basically didn't happen. So the work was done by Internet 6 -- well, 90 percent was Internet and telephone, just back 7 and forth, sending stuff, and occasional visits, so that's 8 why I don't recall. 9 I talked to folks on the phone and on the

10 Internet and never had enough face time to do that. It's 11 a terrible thing on that. 12 I'm just -- if I started digging through

13 paperwork and saw names, that's probably what would 14 happen, is I would recall. 15 Q Did you work with guy named Lieutenant Colonel Eric

16 Maksymyk? 17 A 18 Q 19 A Yes. And what did you do with him? As I recall, a lot of that was -- a lot of the prep

20 work, the prep work in coming up with the scope of works 21 for the original -- the initial life support. Because 22 also, at the time, it was not only finding the life 23 support for the academy is that we needed temporary 24 housing or housing, because we were also having General 25 Petraeus's desire to increase the amount of students, you

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00010 1 know, at all the academies at Baghdad and over in Jordan 2 and Hilla and the others. We're were trying to get it to 3 get up with -- er -- to come up with or to meet his 4 75,000-man goal in his time frame. 5 You know, we crunched the numbers and came up

6 with what each facility needed to graduate. So we had 7 come up with ours, and we were seeking a company to do 8 life support and also build the temporary living 9 facilities to house the sufficient number of students, 10 which basically came to 35 hundred students per class, 11 which then turned into -- and you have two eight-week 12 academies running simultaneously with a four-week 13 separation. So you had about 7,000 people was the plan on 14 the academy grounds or students. 15 Q And the existing facilities weren't sufficient to

16 house that number of students? 17 A 18 Q Right, not at the beginning. And that was the construction of the facility that

19 Parsons was supposed to be performing; correct? 20 A Right. That was the other contract, was they were

21 going to build that permanent facility, and that was 22 being -- that started a little bit later, and, you know, 23 while that was being planned, the life support contractor 24 that ultimately became Laudes but started with someone 25 else being awarded, and, you know, they tried tents, which

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00011 1 didn't work, and then it changed from there. 2 Q 3 A 4 Q 5 A 6 Q Well, do you have that notebook in front of you? I do. Why don't we turn to Exhibit 1. Okay. And if you would look to the second page of Exhibit

7 1, which is a -- looks like a memorandum dated March 29, 8 2004? 9 A 10 Q Yes. You see there is a text box or a small spreadsheet

11 within that memorandum; right? 12 A 13 Q 14 A 15 Q Yes. Were you -- is this document familiar to you at all? No, I don't recall seeing it specifically. Would you have been involved in the preparation of

16 the requirements for which the total estimated cost is 17 provided in that text box? 18 A I believe was. I should have been, but -- and I

19 believe I would have been. That was -- that is -- I 20 spent -- you know, that was a great deal of my time was 21 just doing that: helping forecast ammunition, weapons, 22 the uniform requirements, you know, what we needed for 23 office, student supplies and so on, the furniture for, you 24 know, current facilities, projected facilities, that kind 25 of stuff, but, yeah, I think that's very easily part of

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We will come back to that in a few moments. Just so

3 you know, this isn't a test. 4 A 5 Q 6 A 7 Q Oh, I understand. Certainly. So let's go to Exhibit 3. All right. And take a moment and leaf through that document, if

8 you would, please. 9 Just let me know when you have finished leafing

10 through it. 11 A 12 Q 13 A All right. Is that document familiar to you? I don't recall seeing it. As far as being put as an

14 acquisition plan, I didn't -- no. The numbers and the 15 requirements and stuff are familiar, certainly, but this 16 actual plan, I don't recall seeing. 17 Q 18 A And how are the numbers and requirements familiar? Again, that was the -- in this time frame, the

19 numbers for students matching -- looking at the time and 20 it being called a Public Safety Academy, so there is 21 references to fire protection and the amount of personnel, 22 you know, it was going to be -- there was a plan for the 23 facility to have, like, firefighting training going on 24 there. That's why it was a Public Safety Academy, and 25 then they were separated out later because it just wasn't

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00013 1 feasible on the ground. 2 Q 3 A Okay.

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But, yes, the contents is familiar, but the actual

4 document, I don't recall seeing. 5 Q Okay. If you would go to, I guess, paragraph three.

6 It says "The Total Estimated Cost"; do you see that 7 paragraph? 8 A 9 Q Paragraph three, yes. And then flip over to the next page. It's got a

10 spreadsheet there. 11 A 12 Q Yes. Are you familiar with that spreadsheet or with the

13 information on that spreadsheet? 14 A The information is. That's a great deal of what we

15 worked on, of coming up with the numbers and those things. 16 I don't, you know, I certainly recall talking with Colonel 17 Maksymyk on that stuff, but quite frankly, I don't -- you 18 know, this specific one, I don't recall it, but certainly 19 the contents are exactly what we would always discuss. 20 Q And this has a total estimated cost of 26.5 million

21 dollars; correct? 22 A 23 Q Correct. In looking at this description of the items under

24 this particular little spreadsheet here on the exhibit, is 25 there construction activities in there -- or are there

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Do you know whether it was the original plan to have

4 the contractor provide construction -5 A 6 Q 7 A 8 Q No. -- under the life support contract? No, it was not. Now, under paragraph 11, you have on the next page,

9 it says "Government-furnished Equipment"; right? 10 A 11 Q 12 A Yes. Do you know what that is referring to? Government-furnished equipment, essentially what

13 the -- what we would purchase and have available for our 14 use; i.e., the people on the facility, or for use by the 15 contractor who provided life support. 16 Q Now, if you would just keep your finger on that page

17 of Exhibit 3. If you flip back to Exhibit 1, and look at 18 that one spreadsheet we were looking at before? 19 A 20 Q Okay. Are these the types of equipment that were being

21 purchased listed on the second page of Exhibit 1 which 22 were provided or intended to be provided, to your 23 recollection, as government-furnished equipment under this 24 acquisition plan in Exhibit 3? 25 A Yes. What would have been purchased on the Exhibit

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00015 1 1, second page, that would have been or should have been 2 government-furnished equipment. 3 Q Okay. Now, were you involved -- beyond I think -- I

4 don't want to misstate what you said, but you were 5 involved in identifying requirements -6 A 7 Q 8 A 9 Q Yes. -- for this BPSA; correct? Yes. Now, beyond the identification of requirements, were

10 you otherwise involved in the awarding of the contract, of 11 the life support contact? 12 A I worked in the evaluation of the written proposals,

13 if that's the right -- what the company submitted for 14 their -- for the procurement office to review. I was one 15 of the people that was asked to review their offers and 16 evaluate the offers, yes. 17 Q 18 A 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 Q So if you would switch over to Exhibit 5? Yes. Okay. Are you there? Yes. Does that look familiar to you? Yes, it does. And how is that familiar? I wrote a lot of it. Which parts of it did you write?

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As I recall, I worked on and wrote out a lot of the

2 paragraphs, the requirements within those areas, like 3 each -4 Q 5 A You're looking at the table of contents? Yes. If you would refer to each of the paragraphs,

6 the numbered paragraphs, 3.1 for general information or 7 something, that I would -- I either wrote or someone 8 provided me one and then I adapted it to our needs or 9 tried to adapt it to the needs of the BPSA at the time. 10 Having not had the experience of working in this

11 realm before, I would be given examples and write from it, 12 as I recall, but I wrote a lot of this. 13 Q On the table of contents, the second page, it lists

14 down there at the bottom 3.28, 3.29. Are you familiar 15 with those two paragraphs? 16 A 17 Q Yeah. What was the difference between temporary academy

18 support north and semi-permanent academy support south 19 besides the location? 20 And if you don't recall, if referring to the

21 text of the paragraphs themselves, which are later on in 22 this -23 A I believe that is referencing the potential

24 academies. 28 was referring to temporary academy support 25 north was the Irbil Academy that would be required to --

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00017 1 that was going to be put in or was proposed, and I believe 2 the temporary or semi-permanent academy south, I believe 3 ultimately that was going to be down at Hilla or Babylon, 4 as the academy down there, and looking for the support, 5 same thing, life support operations for those two 6 facilities is what it was referring to. 7 Q 8 A Okay. And now that I sat and looked at it, did I answer

9 your question? 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 A 14 Q 15 A Yes, you did. Okay. Now, if you go to Exhibit 8, please. All right. Do you recall seeing this document? Yeah, this would be -- I'm sorry about -- the form --

16 if this is the -- this is a submission or the report that 17 he would submit for payment. I don't recall. 18 Q Without putting words in your mouth, is it possible

19 that is the proposal that Laudes Corporation submitted in 20 response to the RFP? 21 A 22 Q Yes, sir, that's what it does look like. So this is one of the documents that you would have

23 evaluated in your role as an evaluator in anticipation of 24 awarding a life support contract? 25 A I don't recall this type of document specifically,

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00018 1 because I believe everybody would have -- the people that 2 were bidding would have submitted the same documents or 3 should have, would be my comment first. I may have seen 4 this with everybody's. I don't recall this specific form. 5 It very well could have been there. I just don't recall 6 seeing that. And it very well could have been -- er -7 these numbers were incorporated in their bid, in the 8 document that I did look at but just in a different 9 format, if that makes sense? 10 Q 11 A Yes, it does make sense. A lot of what I recall seeing -- the company packets

12 were a little bit different. Some were extraordinarily 13 brief and some were as detailed as what Laudes or this 14 particular form had. A majority of the companies seemed 15 to want to really introduce their staff, so they had bios, 16 you know, for every person and pictures and stuff, which 17 is fine, but, you know, I certainly would be more 18 interested in seeing exactly something like this. That's 19 why I recall -- I recall seeing the information in the 20 form. In this specific form, I just don't. 21 Q 22 A 23 Q If you go to Exhibit 11, please. Okay. This is a Power Point presentation, I believe. Do

24 you recall ever seeing this Power Point presentation? 25 A No, I didn't see that.

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Okay. Several pages in, about five or six pages in,

2 there is slide called "Source Selection Team Composition". 3 Could you find that page for me, please? 4 A 5 Q Yes. Looking down that list of responsibilities and names,

6 could you -- I don't see your name listed; right? 7 A 8 Q Right. Within which of these organizations or subject

9 matters did you perform your duties on this contract 10 award? Maybe another way of asking it is: With whom did 11 you work? 12 A Colonel Maksymyk. A little bit with LeMaster. I

13 remember working with him. Mark Weaver, there was a lot 14 of work -- contact with Mr. Weaver. Certainly recall 15 working with Major Hirtle. 16 Q 17 A Who was the contracting officer? Yeah. I mean, either e-mails or speaking with him at

18 times. I recall those names. 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 A And you mentioned Mr. LeMaster? Yes. What did you do with him? If I recall, he was a civil contractor or a civilian

23 working in the contracting procurement office there, and I 24 think one of the times when I did go in to do the 25 evaluations of the proposals, do the paper review of those

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00020 1 proposals, he was the guy that I met there once and sat 2 down there for -- it was several hours, but he was the guy 3 that gave me the paperwork and talked with him there, and 4 different times speaking with him on the phone about the 5 projects. 6 Q 7 A 8 Q 9 A Was this before or after award or both? Both. What organization was he with? What CPA position? Honestly, I don't know. I mean, it was in the

10 procurement contracting office, and outside of that, I 11 don't recall. I have really no idea right now. 12 Q When you say "the procurement contracting office" or

13 the PCO -14 A 15 Q Yeah. -- that was a organization that came into existence

16 after June 28, 2004; correct? 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 Q I believe so, yes. And so they have listed right there now PMO; right? Yes. So that was the project and management office? I think so, yes. Yes. And Lieutenant Colonel Maksymyk worked in that

23 organization as well? 24 A 25 Q Yes. Was he kind of like the project manager or program

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I believe so. I spent an awful lot of time working

3 with him on the project, on information flow back and 4 forth. 5 Q Now, if you go to Exhibit 13, please, and take a

6 moment to look that over. I'm not going to ask you any 7 questions beyond the first two pages. 8 A 9 Q 10 A 11 Q 12 13 14 13? 15 A 16 Q 17 A Yes. And how are you familiar with it? There is -- this was the first -- er -- the company Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Are you familiar with that first page -It looks --- of Exhibit 13? I'm sorry. Let me restate the question. Are you familiar with the first page of Exhibit

18 that was awarded the contract initially for the life 19 support at BPSA in 2004, Iraq Khadamat. 20 Q And is it your understanding that they were in part

21 awarded the contract to provide life support for one to 22 1,500 students? 23 A 24 Q Yes. I mean, yeah, that would have been part of it. Right. On the next page, there is additional things

25 they were awarded under this particular contract?

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Yes. Including item number 1008, semi-permanent academy? Yes. For about 9.8 million dollars, I think is the number? Yes. Let's see, on the second page it says temporary

6 site at Irbil. 7 Q 8 A It's the one below that, I think. Yes, the 1009, semi-permanent academy at, yeah, 9.8.

9 A little more. 10 Q Okay. Now, at the time of this award, do you recall

11 whether the semi-permanent academy was to be at some other 12 location or was it instead to be at BPSA? 13 A I believe that's -- that is referencing to the

14 semi-permanent academy built at BPSA. We did not have a 15 facility large enough to house over the current -- I want 16 to say roughly 200, 250 students. We weren't housing 17 anybody there, now that I think about it, and that was 18 part of what we required from that part of the contract 19 was it was going to be a tent-city type thing. 20 Q So instead of having it at some other location, that

21 semi-permanent academy was supposed to be now, at contract 22 award, at BPSA; is that right? 23 A 24 Q That is my understanding, yes. Because originally when the statement of work was --

25 it was a semi-permanent academy south or north --

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Yes, there was a reference to one to the south and

2 one to the north, and I don't recall -- I have a faint 3 recollection of possibly that that was the potential, but 4 there was never -- I don't recall there ever being -- I 5 mean, we have always required the numbers out of the 6 Baghdad Academy. We required a specific number of 7 students, and we had no housing. We had to have housing, 8 you know. 9 So the reference to a south or a north, there

10 would have still been a need for housing at BPSA, and 11 that's what I would take this to be. Because that was 12 where -- that was -- that was the effort, the attempt at 13 least on Iraq Khadamat's part to fulfill that part of the 14 contract. 15 Q Well, if you go back to Exhibit 5, real quick, which

16 I think we agreed was the request for proposal on this 17 particular project? 18 A 19 Q 20 A 21 Q Yes. And the statement of objectives? Yes. Can you show me -- just take a moment and glance

22 through this and see if you can identify for me where in 23 this particular statement of objectives exists the 24 requirement for the contractor to provide a semi-permanent 25 or temporary facility at BPSA.

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It references page -- on the solicitation contract

2 order for commercial items, standard form 1449, page two 3 of 29, there is line item 10009 referring to a 4 semi-permanent academy, option CLIN, 1, appears to be the 5 reference to the construction of the semi-permanent 6 academy. 7 Q I understand. That is the same line we looked in the

8 contract award sheet; right? 9 A 10 Q Yes. That is there. My question to you, though, sir: If you would look

11 at the statement of objectives? 12 A 13 Q Yes. If you could just glance at that real quick and tell

14 me where in the statement of objectives it identifies that 15 requirement for a semi-permanent academy to be created at 16 BPSA under this statement of objectives? 17 A I don't believe it does. It doesn't specifically

18 identify it. And I'm flipping through the pages as we 19 speak. I may be mistaken, but as I recall, it does not. 20 Q So is it your understanding -- er -- I mean, does it

21 make sense to you that the requirement to build -- I mean, 22 there was an option plan to have a semi-permanent academy 23 south; correct? 24 A 25 Q That is correct. Was that option CLIN exercised and moved from the

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That's -- that's what I'm thinking. As I think about

3 it, that's what was done or what was -- yes. To make it 4 short, that's what happened. That's my recollection. 5 Q All right. Now let's go to Exhibit 14, real quick.

6 See, we're working our way through these pretty quick. 7 A 8 Q 9 A 10 Q 11 A 12 Q Yeah. Okay. Take a moment to look that over. Yes. You are familiar with that, I assume? Yes. And this was your appointment as the contracting

13 officer representative or COR for this particular 14 contract? 15 A 16 Q 17 A 18 Q Yes. Now, this is for the Iraq Khadamat company; correct? Yes, it is. Now we're going to get to it in a moment, but Iraq

19 Khadamat, their contract was ultimately terminated for 20 default; correct? 21 A 22 Q Correct. And Laudes Corporation came in and took over that

23 scope of work; correct? 24 A 25 Q Correct. And were you the contracting officer for the Laudes

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00026 1 Corporation contract as well? 2 A 3 Q 4 A The representative, yes. I'm sorry. The COR.

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Yes. And I don't recall that I got -- honestly, I

5 don't recall if I got a specific form, as I did for the 6 Khadamat contract, and I don't know if -- my assumption 7 would be is because the contract number remained the name 8 the same. That may be someone else's answer. I just 9 don't recall or you may have it here, so. 10 Q 11 A I haven't seen such a letter. I very well could have been given one and I don't

12 recall, but I was -13 Q 14 A 15 Q 16 A 17 Q 18 A 19 Q But you did provide that role? Yes. Provide those services? Yes. Yes. So if you go to Exhibit 15 now, please. Yes. Okay. And that is a statement of work rather than a

20 statement of objectives? 21 A 22 Q Yes. And if you look at the table of contents, it looks to

23 me to be fairly consistent with the statement of 24 objectives we looked at earlier; correct? 25 A Yes.

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If you take a moment and leaf through that, I have a

2 couple of questions. 3 A 4 Q Okay. And my questions are actually going to start on

5 page -- well, what's labeled as page 131 at the top, but 6 at the bottom it says 000305. 7 A 8 Q 9 A 10 Q Okay. Are you there? Yup. In particular, I'm interested in this option CLIN

11 1009, the semi-permanent academy heading. Okay? 12 A 13 Q Yes. Now, right below that bold face underlined sentence,

14 there is sentence that says, "These requirements were 15 agreed upon at the meeting dated 2 June, 2004." 16 17 A 18 Q Do you see that? Yes. Were you a member or participating in that particular

19 meeting; do you recall? 20 A 21 Q Boy, I don't recall. Well, at some point in time Iraq Khadamat and CPA had

22 to agree on what was going to be done at BPSA regarding 23 the tent city; right? 24 A Okay. Now that -- boy, I have to -- I have to do a

25 little bit of digging. Let me just think a moment. 2

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I recall being -- I recall very clearly being at

3 the initial meet with the Iraq Khadamat personnel, being 4 introduced to who would be the staff that would be on 5 ground plus their higher-ups, their report-to people. I 6 certainly recall having that meeting. I don't recall if 7 it was at BPSA or at the academy or at the Green Zone. 8 But I specifically recall it because we did not start out 9 on the right foot even then. And it was kind of humorous, 10 but still, you know, we worked through it. I recall being 11 in that type of a meeting once. If it was to specifically 12 go over the scope of works and this document, I don't 13 recall that, but I certainly do remember being there for 14 that. 15 Q Were you involved in fleshing out, if you will, the

16 description of work that was going to be required to 17 accomplish that semi-permanent academy at BPSA? 18 A I certainly -- you know, essentially, the

19 requirements as far as number of students, the needs to 20 take care of those students, doing that, providing that, 21 you know, obviously giving them either a schematic or 22 blueprint of the space of which they had to work in; i.e., 23 they were going to build the tent city, so here is your 24 grounds that measure, you know, in this area and in size, 25 along that line of type of thing is what I would have

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00029 1 done. How they were going to accomplish it was just that. 2 It's left for them to propose. 3 We need facilities and living arrangements for

4 "X" amount of students, and as I recall, they came 5 essentially with their proposal of building a tent 6 facility and dining facility and such to fulfill that 7 proposal. 8 Q On the paragraph 1A(i), it says "Intent"; do you see

9 that? 10 A 11 Q Yes. And it goes on to say, "The intent is to provide

12 basic design and construction services to provide an 13 expedient camp of 1,250 students and 50 instructors;" 14 right? 15 A 16 Q Yes. How do those numbers, the 1250 and 50, relate to the

17 life support contract as awarded for life support up to 15 18 hundred students? 19 A I believe the 1250, at the time we had already had

20 250 students. That was generally what we had at the 21 academy at all times, was running classes of 250 students 22 through the academy. So we had already had that many on 23 the ground, and so the 1250 was the plus to the 250. 24 Q 25 A Okay. So that's how you got up to the 15 hundred? Yes. As I recall, we had 250 students going through.

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00030 1 Those 250 were already existing officers, and there was a 2 training program. They were already Iraqi policemen, and 3 they were brought back to the police academy to go through 4 a democratic-type policing school, you know, to bring them 5 on board with the same curriculum that the new basic 6 training students would be coming out with, is essentially 7 what it was. 8 Q 9 A Okay. So that's what we were doing, and then when it was

10 decided to start ramping up of the overall academy, once 11 we trained those existing officers and we were done with 12 them -- I don't recall the amount of students there were, 13 but we had the facility that was large enough to handle 14 about 250 at a time. Once they were completely trained, 15 by that time we had this facility to be done and start the 16 basic training of new hires and new students. 17 Q Okay. If you go to the next page under paragraph 2B,

18 "Expedient Camp Construction"? 19 A 20 Q Yes. It gives some deadlines in there for 500 cadets on 12

21 June, a thousand on 1 July, et cetera? 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 Q Yes. Was that the schedule that you recall being in place? Yes. So as I read this, my understanding is that based on

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00031 1 what you have just said, I'm going to make a little 2 statement here and you tell me where I'm wrong. Okay? 3 You had approximately -- you had facilities

4 existing for approximately 250 students -5 A 6 Q Yes. -- and by 12 June, 2004, this contractor, Iraq

7 Khadamat, was to provide a tent city -8 A 9 Q Yes. -- and related infrastructure for another 500

10 students -11 A 12 Q 13 A 14 Q Correct. -- another 500 cadets? Yes. And if you go back to the next page, 2C, "Renovation

15 of Existing Buildings, instructors barracks 7 and 8"? 16 A 17 Q Yes. Says in that first sentence, "The contractor will

18 provide a proposal for the renovation of the instructors' 19 barracks." 20 A 21 Q Yes. Was that something that Iraq Khadamat was suppose to

22 do was renovate the instructors' barracks? 23 A 24 Q Yes. When their contract was terminated, was that

25 something that Laudes was required to do?

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I believe so. Is it your understanding that when Iraq Khadamat's

3 contract was terminated, that Laudes was awarded a 4 contract to do exactly that which Iraq Khadamat was 5 originally obligated to do under its contract? 6 A 7 Q Yes. At contract award to Laudes, then, there was no

8 change in the scope of work that Laudes was to perform 9 when compared to that which Iraq Khadamat was to perform 10 just prior to its termination? 11 A I'll try to be brief. As I recall, that is correct.

12 That statement is correct. As well as I believe there may 13 have been additional works or requests for work that was 14 added. 15 I had taken leave. Iraq Khadamat had the

16 contract, had started working on their project, and from 17 day one, there were issues, and the issues significantly 18 rose by the time I took leave. By the time I returned 19 from my leave, and I believe it was no more than three 20 weeks, even less, Laudes was then awarded the contract. 21 And as I recall, it seems to me that the basic

22 contract that I am looking at here in this exhibit in tab 23 15 would given to them, and there may have been additional 24 works added on. 25 Essentially, that seemed to be the overall --

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00033 1 one of things was there was always more going on and 2 things being added quite a bit. And that would -- I was 3 gone in that period of time, but this package in tab 15 4 would be -- it would have been handed directly over to 5 Laudes to be done, as I recall. 6 Q With the addition of any other changes that had been

7 issued in the interim? 8 A Yeah, that may have been added by other people while

9 I was gone. 10 Q Let's go to Exhibit 17 and just take a glance at

11 that, because my question is: Were you around or were you 12 on leave when this particular letter was issued, to your 13 recollection? 14 A I don't -- I know I certainly spoke with Major

15 Blackmon. This type of information would be either from 16 him visiting -- major Blackmon visiting or he would have 17 visited to actually see these deficiencies and they were 18 reported by myself and/or the other staff members. 19 Essentially the chief, the deputy chief and myself were 20 probably the three biggest, you know, inspectors, if you 21 would call it that, to being out on the ground, looking at 22 what is going on, and noticing or looking to see that 23 anybody is fulfilling their contract. If it was brought 24 to anyone's attention, they would flag it to me so I could 25 go look as well and then report up.

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I'm looking at this, and essentially a majority

2 of these things are things I definitely recall seeing. 3 Q 4 A Okay. Or the issues they brought up of Iraq Khadamat.

5 Again, this is on or -- it's close to when I took leave. 6 I don't recall seeing this specific form, but every one of 7 these issues, I certainly do recall. I know -- as a 8 matter of fact, I think I still have pictures of some of 9 the concrete issues that I've had on a computer somewhere, 10 I recall. 11 Q So you're not familiar with the letter; you're

12 familiar with the contract deficiencies referenced in the 13 letter? 14 A Yeah. This appears -- it -- may be that I would -- I

15 don't recall if the contracting office would specifically 16 send this to me. I think they did. And/or they would 17 notify me that they have done, you know, taken action or 18 notified the company, and that they have, you know, 19 notified them of shortfalls and I need to be looking to 20 see that they either fixed it or dealt with it. 21 Q Do you remember having meetings with Major Blackmon

22 out at BPSA? 23 A 24 Q 25 A Yes. Are you sure it was Blackmon or not Maksymyk? I've had meetings with both. I certainly recall

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00035 1 Major -- Colonel Maksymyk more than any. I may have met 2 with Major Blackmon back at the Green Zone, now that I'm 3 thinking about it. That is probably -- that would 4 probably be what occurred. I just don't recall 5 specifically. 6 Q Did you travel on occasion to the Green Zone to speak

7 to Major Blackmon about this contract? 8 A 9 Q 10 A On the Iraq Khadamat portion, very little. How about the Laudes portion? Yeah. The majority of my time was spent on site. If

11 there were issues, to me, it made no point to go and stand 12 at their desk and yell when if I was there, trying to 13 resolve an issue or something, and the issue was I needed 14 them on the ground where I was, if that makes sense? 15 Why, you know, I'm putting -- essentially,

16 you're putting yourself at risk for harm to go over to the 17 Green Zone, you know, to raise an issue when you either 18 did it on the phone, you know, or Internet or however, but 19 you know, at the time that was probably the greatest 20 restriction was at that time things were ramped up as far 21 as the danger, quite frankly. It did play a role on site 22 visiting and reporting. 23 So you did -- you know, a great deal of the work

24 was on the phone and on the Internet. As I recall, a 25 majority of the time that we met, if we did, was for them

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00036 1 to get over and to get eyes on the project. 2 Q 3 A When you say "them", to whom are you referring? Maksymyk and anyone from the contracting office, but

4 mostly, if I saw the majority of anybody, it was Colonel 5 Maksymyk over there coming to the academy. 6 Q So when you went on leave and came back, Laudes

7 Corporation was on station? 8 A 9 Q Yes. Let me ask this question a different way. When, in

10 relation to -- you know, what I refer to the transfer of 11 authority June 28, 2004 -12 A 13 Q 14 A Uh-huh. Yes. -- do you know that date? I believe that's when Laudes was officially given the

15 contract to start work. 16 Q Well, we will get to that. The transfer of authority

17 I'm referring to is when Mr. Bremer -18 A 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 A Oh. Okay. Quite frankly, it made whatever. Sorry. It didn't affect your life much? No. Lot of stuff was exploding, so no. I understand. Actually, I believe that occurred when I was out of

23 country. I was on vacation. I was on a vacation. So it 24 was all about that same time. 25 Q So, I think the record is fairly clear that the

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00037 1 transfer of the authority, which we're calling a transfer 2 of authority, occurred on June 28, 2004. 3 A 4 Q 5 A 6 Q 7 A 8 Q Yes. Yes. I certainly recall it, but yeah. It was planed to be on June 30th, if you recall? Okay. I'll agree with you. That's fine. I just trying to use those dates -Sure. -- as a point of reference for you to see if you can

9 recall the time period of your vacation. 10 A 11 Q 12 A Yeah. Providing it as a reference. That's certainly over that period. I would have to

13 go back and dig. It was all right about that same time 14 frame. That may have been about when I left, right in 15 that time frame, because -- and not trying to grandstand 16 or make anything sound special, but I returned to country 17 after that vacation, and it may have been right at the end 18 of June. I left in July, because I wasn't in country more 19 than two weeks and I got hit by a mortar, so -- and I know 20 that date specifically. 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 A What was that date? August 14. Had you been in country about two weeks? I'd gotten back from my vacation. I wasn't back very

25 long. It was a very short period. It was only a couple

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00038 1 of weeks. So that may have been when I was gone, was in 2 July, but the transition of authority, you know, I recall 3 it. But like I said, my life, everything that I was doing 4 was, you know, my focus out there, and quite frankly, I 5 was focused. So the rest of it was -- it didn't affect 6 me, so to speak, so, you know, pressing on and doing my 7 job out there. So that is kind of, you know, I would say 8 probably it's better to say that that vacation now would 9 have more the month of July. 10 Q Okay. Let's go to Exhibit 24 and take a moment and

11 look at that, if you would. And when you're finished, 12 just let me know. 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 Q Okay. Are you familiar with that document? I recall seeing that. And how about towards the end of that document, I

17 guess, beginning about -- oh, page -- if you look at the 18 bottom right-hand side, we're looking at what we call 19 Bates numbers US 000856. Do you see that? 20 A 21 Q Yes. Okay. And we're back to calling this a statement of

22 objectives rather than a statement of work? 23 A Yes, and that is probably simply -- you know, now

24 that you mention that, overall, after writing the original 25 objectives, the contracting office told me -- that's where

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00039 1 I remember making this document and working on this and 2 then I forwarded it to procurement or contracting, which 3 ever, and they just simply said we plug this -- this is 4 what we stick into the project, and, ultimately, this 5 thing, without even changing it, becomes the statement of 6 work, is basically what they told me. 7 Q So is this a document starting on US 000856 and

8 continuing on to 873, is this a document that you 9 prepared? 10 A 11 Q 12 A 13 Q 14 A As I recall, yes. Now, on the last page, the 873 page -Yes. -- there is a schedule listed there? Yes. That, I know I didn't put that in there. And

15 this is where I would recall making this particular 16 document. It was electronically moved back and forth, 17 rather than hard copies, or both ways, but it was so, you 18 know, either people at -- from when it was reviewed, it 19 could be, you know, added, subtracted to and such, from 20 our level at the academy and then at our higher 21 headquarters, and then even at contracting to ensure that 22 everything we needed was included, and then ultimately 23 submitted and done. 24 Q Did you look at this particular statement of

25 objectives that we're referencing here in Exhibit 24 and

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00040 1 determine what, if anything, was different between it and 2 the statement of objectives or statement of work that Iraq 3 Khadamat was to perform? 4 A I think I probably looked at it or worked on it. If

5 there is any -- I don't recall if the changes in that 6 cover page, signed by Major Blackmon, referring to the 7 armory and Internet cafe and such, if that was actually 8 added to the body of that scope of objectives. I don't 9 recall. I would have to go and look at it to see if that 10 was in there. Other than that, it would be the same 11 document. 12 Q So when you say "the armory and Internet cafe", those

13 were things that Iraq Khadamat were not suppose to do? 14 A I don't believe so. Because it's on this letter

15 dated 20 June from Major Blackmon specifically citing it 16 needs to be done. 17 So that's where I was saying earlier, as I

18 recall, when we had Iraq Khadamat's contract and it was 19 given to them, here's how much work we need done, and by 20 the time we had gotten to the point that Laudes was coming 21 in, there was more that we needed for them to do, and it 22 was added to their scope of objectives or scope of works. 23 And I think this is how -- as I recall, that's

24 why I said that earlier. It seemed to me that that did or 25 was going to occur, and that I was either part of those

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00041 1 conversations or I certainly was aware that that was -2 you know, obviously we were realizing we need more 3 assistance in doing certain things and more -- for 4 whatever reason, I don't recall, but there was more work 5 for them to do. 6 Q 7 A 8 Q More work for Laudes to do? Yes, sir. Then the letter, that cover sheet, the cover letter,

9 the award letter you just mentioned -10 A 11 Q 12 A 13 Q 14 A Yes. -- it lists security upgrades? Yes. Do you recall what those were? That was working on our towers. We had -- we had to

15 have, I believe, additional towers built that were on the 16 perimeter of the school, and then it was shortly realized 17 that the towers were not -- were insufficient as far as 18 bulletproof, and so there was the construction of towers, 19 additional towers to whatever was already existing, and 20 then to create more -- essentially a double-walled -- a 21 steel double-wall around -- er -- the walls which were 22 then poured -- you know, it's really a three-inch gap that 23 was poured with concrete to stop bullets, because the 24 steel itself didn't, which was learned by a few accidental 25 discharges and certainly just people passing by taking a

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I'm going to go to Exhibit 25 now, please. Okay. Did you ever see that letter? I may have. It seems to me I have. Do you recall the context in which you saw it? Honestly, I don't. I don't. Let's go to Exhibit 26, please. Okay. You're familiar with this particular form, maybe not

11 the information, but this form; correct? 12 A 13 Q 14 A Yes. What is this form that we're looking at? There is -- this is what I would be given by the

15 company to show the delivery of goods or services for the 16 BPSA, and then I would sign as this coming in, and then 17 move that up to the next higher headquarters for the 18 company to ultimately receive payment as part of their 19 contract. 20 Q So what is your -- on the bottom right-hand corner of

21 this document there is a block 22, receivers use? 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 Q Yes. Is that your signature there on 14 August? Yes. And by signing this, what are you saying?

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Essentially, that the items that are listed under

2 block -- within the block 16 -- er -- there is items 3 numbered 15 and 16, the line item and/or the description 4 of items were delivered or the service was delivered to 5 the BPSA. 6 Q Now, was it -- if you just -- without going -- we're

7 not going to go into each one of those in detail, but if 8 you look at Exhibit 28 -- I'm sorry -- 27. 9 A 10 Q 27, yes. Okay. That is your signature on in block 22 of that

11 exhibit? 12 A 13 Q Yes. And then on Exhibit 28, your signature on block 22

14 again? 15 A 16 Q 17 A 18 Q 19 A Yes. And on 29, that is not your signature; is it? No, it's not. And whose it that; do you recall? That would be Alistair Hutchison, he was the

20 assistant director. 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 Q And Mel -- is it Goudie? Yes. G-o-u-d-i-e; right? Correct. And he was the director?

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Yes, he was the director. Both of those are

2 gentleman serving from the United Kingdom, police 3 officers, that were at the academy with me. 4 Q And in terms of an organizational chart, where did

5 they fall in relation to you? 6 A Mel was the director, on top, I guess. Alistair

7 Hutchison, he was the assistant director, and then below 8 those two you have logistics, operations. You know, 9 across where you would have directors, chiefs, whatever 10 title they wanted to call us, but we came across the line 11 of -- you know, I don't recall the specific name of some 12 of it, but the head instructor, like that, but they were 13 both my bosses. 14 Q And then if we go to Exhibit 30, we're back to your

15 signature; right, on block 22? 16 A 17 Q Yes. Now, do you know, for example, on block 29 why

18 Mr. Hutchinson -- Hutchison; right? 19 A 20 Q Yes. With no "N". Why Mr. Hutchison signed this in lieu

21 of you? 22 A I may have -- I may not have been there, and in that

23 time frame, if I was gone either for the day or for a 24 little longer -- and at that time, that is shortly after I 25 was hit with the mortar. I had to spend about a week over

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00045 1 in the Green Zone having some medical stuff taken care of. 2 It could have been because of that. So at times, if I 3 wasn't present, then either Mel or Alistair would be the 4 other persons that these documents would be submitted to. 5 Q 6 A 7 Q 8 A 9 Q 10 A 11 Q 12 A 13 Q 14 A 15 Q 16 A 17 Q 18 A 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 Q Then on Exhibit 32? Yes. That looks to be -Mel. -- October 13? Yes. And that was Mel Goudie's signature? Yes. Then on Exhibit 33, that is back to your signature -Yes, sir. -- on block 22; correct? Yes, sir. And then 34 is back to -Mel. -- Mel Goudie; right? Yes. He signed that? Yes. Do you recognize that signature? Yes. 35, Exhibit 35 is back to you?

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Yes, sir. And 36 is back to you? Yes. And 37 is you? Yes. 38 is you? Yes. 39 is you? Yes. 40 is you? Yup. Yes, sir. 41 is you? Yes. 42 is you? Yes. 43 is you? Yes. And 44 looks to be Michael Bilan? Yes, Bilan. Mike Bilan. He was brought in basically

20 as a deputy for me or assistant, you know, coworker is 21 essentially what it was, in logistics. 22 Q 23 A 24 Q 25 A So was he authorized to sign this in lieu of you? Yes. How so? Once I was not available, I think -- again, this may

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00047 1 have been -- in fact, this date, I know I was out of 2 country on leave, and he would be filling in in my 3 capacity as the contracting chief of logistics. 4 Q And 36 -- I'm sorry. We're back to 45. I'm sorry.

5 45 looks to be you? 6 A 7 Q Yes. Now, so we have gone through at least the DD250s and

8 that's what they are called; right? 9 A 10 Q Yes. As we have gone through those in this notebook, I

11 would like to talk for a moment with you about what your 12 process was that you went through before you signed the 13 DD250s. Was there a general practice that you had or did 14 it vary from time to time? 15 A General practice was -- by time -- er -- while these

16 were being submitted, I obviously had the statement of 17 objectives or works and -- either having had them written, 18 but I would -- my office was next door to the one we 19 provided for Laudes, and I would see receipts of items 20 delivered. I was on the ground observing, you know, and 21 seeing that fuels were delivered, work, the physical work 22 was either being done. Obviously, I would check the chow 23 hall. I would have meals brought to me or I would have 24 meals at the school. One, checking quality; two simply -25 well, primarily that.

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Obviously, the students needed to see that, you

2 know, at times you would always get complaints, no matter 3 what. Nobody is ever happy. I would be basically out 4 there as much as I could seeing, one, items are delivered, 5 the proposed services that were required were being done, 6 cleanup, security, the construction of items. You know, 7 walking through to see that the janitorial stuff was being 8 done. 9 It was one of the most amazing things to see the

10 willingness of students to destroy everything we built. I 11 have never seen anything like that in my life, and it was 12 amazing that what we would repair and fix, within 24 hours 13 it would be either damaged or physically gone, where the 14 day before it was simply broken. 15 Q 16 A When you say "we", who do you mean? I would be inspecting Larry's staff, the Laudes staff

17 that was on site, the various bosses that they had on the 18 ground. I feel really bad. I forget his main guy that 19 was there at the academy. 20 Q 21 A Stan Ellis? Stan, yeah. Stan, we had radios. I mean, we would

22 be in touch with each other. I mean, he slept in the room 23 next to me. That's how it worked. I mean, we were, you 24 know, constantly, you know, in each other's hair. I'm 25 checking with them; they are checking with me. They would

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00049 1 see something, hey, look at this, we need you to, you. 2 know, look at this, this is damaged, this is broken, this 3 is being done by students, here's what we're fixing. Or I 4 would see something and raise a flag, good or bad. You 5 know, I mean, you know, would certainly go either way with 6 it. 7 Q On the second page of Exhibit 26, it appears to be a

8 invoice from Laudes Corporation; right? 9 A 10 Q Yes. Do you recall seeing these documents, these kind of

11 documents before? 12 A I would see these documents, yes. I would get these.

13 I would also see -- there would be other receipts, like 14 sometimes it was handwritten in Arabic, but either fuel or 15 foods, but predominantly it was like this. 16 Q And was the DD250 filled out by Laudes and attached

17 to the invoice for your signature? 18 A 19 Q Yes. So you would get a package that had this invoice and

20 this DD250 combined? 21 A 22 Q Yes. Now, on the invoice itself, under, like, the CLIN

23 that says food services, and right below, that it says, 24 paren, "See attached," close paren; right? 25 A Yes.

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I don't have anything attached to this document

2 because I don't know what was attached. Can you tell me 3 what kind of things you would have seen attached to this? 4 A That's where I have seen, like, receipts from local

5 vendors, I believe, that may have -- that is again not 6 having an interpreter, but it would be indicating to me 7 this is from a food supplier, a fuel supplier, whatever 8 that particular item was. I saw those things at times. 9 Q Let's