Free Motion to Dismiss - Rule 12(b)(1) - District Court of Federal Claims - federal

Case 1:07-cv-00012-MCW

Document 15-3

Filed 01/25/2008

Page 1 of 20

EXHIBIT 2

Case 1:07-cv-00012-MCW
Robert Ingrum

Document 15-3

Filed 01/25/2008

Page 2 of 20
December 10, 2007

Page 1 IN THE UNITED STATES COURT OF FEDERAL CLAIMS

ROBERT INGRUM Plaintiff,

) )

) )
vs. ) No. 07-12L ) Hon. Mary Ellen Coster Williams

)
THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA) Defendant. )

i0 ORAL DEPOSITION OF II ROBERT INGRUM

DECEMBER I0, 2007 12

13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ORAL DEPOSITION OF ROBERT INGRUM, produced as a witness at the instance of the Defendant, and duly sworn, was taken in the above-styled and numbered cause on DECEMBER i0, 2007, from 9:50 a.m. to 2:37 p.m., before Shana R. Wise, CSR in and for the State of Texas, reported by method of machine shorthand, at the Law Offices of Minton, Burton, Foster & Collins, ii00 Guadalupe Street, Austin, Texas, pursuant to the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and the provisions stated on the record or attached hereto.

Esquire Deposition Services 9901 IH-10 West Ste. 630 Phone (210) 331-2280 (800) 558-3670 Electronically signed by Shana Wise (401-340-211-9479)

San Antonio, T.X. 78230 Fax (210) 558-3670 1 bO420e4-5c40-4867-b265-406f2d 5221 a3

Case 1:07-cv-00012-MCW
Robert Ingrum

Document 15-3

Filed 01/25/2008

Page 3 of 20
December 10, 2007

Page 2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 APPEARANCES FOR THE PLAINTIFF: Mr. John C. Carsey MINTON, BURTON, FOSTER & COLLINS 1100 Guadalupe Austin, Texas 78701 (512) 476-4873 [email protected] FOR THE DEFENDANT: Mr. Bruce K. Trauben DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 601 D Street, NW Washington, DC 20004 (202) 305-0238 [email protected] -ANDCaptain Lisa Satterfield THE UNITED STATES ARMY EXHIBITS - continued PAGE NO. DESCRIPTION IDENT. 13 Plaintiffs Responses to Defendant's First Set of Interrogatories and Requests For Production of Documents 14 Plaintiffs First Supplemental Responses to Defendant's First Set of Interrogatories and Requests for Production of Documents 78 -15 MapQuest Printout 8 16 Phone Records 9 17 Claim for Damage, Iniury, or Death 113 10 18 Letter to The Honorable Pete Gallego 114 11 19 Affidavit of Robert lngrum 128 102 98

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Page 3 1 2 3 4 ROBERT INGRUM 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 1 Map 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 10 Photographs 24 11 River Road Site Visit December 4> 2007 68 63 2 January 8, 1998 Letter to Mr. Alan Wittenberg from Dan L. Wilkinson, 33 ¯ PhD. 3 Affidavit Regarding Compliance with Contract Obligations and Acceptance of Property 34 4 Earnest Money Contract 36 5 Earnest Money Contract 38 6 Amendment of Contract of Sale 44 7 General Warranty Deed (all cash) 45 8 Survey 47 9 Military Construction, Training and 4 Operations Right-of-Entry Permit 9 17 143 CHANGES AND SIGNATURE ............................ REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE ........................... 145 EXHIBITS PAGE NO. DESCRIPTION IDENT. EXAMINATION BY MR. TRAUBEN .................... 5 EXAMINATION BY MR. CARSEY ..................... 133 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR. TRAUBEN ............ 137 INDEX PAGE APPEARANCES ...................................... 2 STIPULATIONS (Attached hereto)

Page 5

! ROBERT INGRUM, having been first duly sworn, testified as follows: 2 3 EXAMINATION 4 QUESTIONS BY MR. TRAUBEN: 5 Q. Could you please state your full name for the 6 record. A. It's Robert P., Porter, Ingrum, I-n-g-r-u-m. 7 8 Q. For the record, my name is Bruce Trauben. I 9 represent The United States in the action of Robert Ingru 10 versus the United States. And we're here to take your 11 deposition, as you know. 1'11 go over just a few ground 12 The idea for the proceedings today is that I'll ask you 13 questions. And hopefully you can provide answers to the 14 of your recollection. If you don't recall something, jus 15 so. That's fine. 16 A. Okay. 17 Q. When I ask you a question and you give a respo 18 we'll assume that you understood the question. 19 A. Okay. 20 Q. And if you don't understand the question, ple 21 ask -- you know, just let me know and I'll try and reph 22 A. Okay. 23 Q. We have a court reporter here who is taking do 24 every word that is being said today, which means that w 25 to respond in words verbally. Nods of the head, things

2 (Pages 2 to 5) Esquire Deposition Services 9901 IH-10 West Ste. 630 San Antonio, T.X. 78230 (800) 558-3670 Fax (210) 558-3670 Phone (210) 331-2280 Electronically signed by Shana Wise (401-340-211-9479) 1 bO420e4-5c40-48d7-b2d5-406f2d5221 a3

Case 1:07-cv-00012-MCW
Robert Ingrum

Document 15-3

Filed 01/25/2008

Page 4 of 20
December 10, 2007

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Q. Did you have property surveyed, normally, before Oh, I don't know that she -- probably -- no, 1 A. purchasing it? 2 don't. A. Yes. Q. Do you know whether it involved the parcel f 3 Q. Before you bought the property near Candelaria, there's an allegation that the government to 4 which Texas, this property that we're talking about 5 that's part of material from a borrow pit? the lawsuit, was an appraisal done of that property before you don't -- I don't know. I don't rememb 6 A. No, I bought it? 7 don't know whether that was... A. No, it was not. 8 Q. When did you first learn about this property mouth? Q. Was the price per acre based on word of 9 Candelaria, Texas? A. I'm sure it was. 10 A. Probably a couple years, maybe three years b Q. Did you have -- at that time, in 1998or 1999, did I'd heard there was some property for sale do 11 that. you have a pretty good idea of what property was going !lbr per tell you -- 1 don't remember who -- who 12 but can't acre? 13 told me about it. A. Not really. That country out there is -- is very That was approximately 1996, 1997? 14 Q. unusual, very different from anything that I 15 used to. And was A. Just aguess. the visual aspects of it are -- are overwhelming, to say the likely by word of mouth? 16 Q, Most least. 17 A. Word of mouth. Q. So it's -- specifically with respect to the Q. Did you attend realtor events, such as confere 18 Candelaria property, how did you go about determining the price 19 things like that? per acre at that time? 20 A. No, I did not. A. Well, it -- you know, there were 36 heirs involved. you a member of any real estate organiza 21 Q. Were And it was a long negotiation, to say the least. I A. I was during the time that I had -- that I ha would guess 22 two to three years. 23 active license. Q. And the seller suggested the price per acre? Q. What organization was that? 24 A. Oh, we had many, many suggestions back and forth. 25 A. Austin Board of Realtors. Page 15 Page 17

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It was a -- it was a long, drawn-out, contentious, if that's TRAUBEN: Have this marked as Exhibit 1. MR. the word, right word, negotiation. (Exhibit 1 marked.) Q. At the time, how did -- did you convince yourself at MR. TRAUBEN) What's been marked as Exhibit 1 i Q. (BY the time that the price per acre was fair? 4 a map of southwest Texas. Do you recognize the area dep A. You know, I didn't know. I just -- I knew it wasA. Yes, ldo. 5 6 Q. There's an arrow pointing to a square, and just a beautiful piece of property. And I guess I fell in love with it. And... 7 underneath it says 3300-acre ranch, ls that your writ Q. Do you know what the price per acre was?8 A. Yes. A. It -- John refreshed my memory this morning. I Q. And you drew the square? 9 didn't remember. But he refreshed my memory this morning and 10 A. Yes, Idid. said that it was $98,000. 11 Q. And it's just northwest, maybe about a mile f Q. And the price per acre? 12 Candelaria? A. Oh, the price per acre. Well, I'd just 13 have toA. Right. divide 98,000 by 3300. I'd have to see what that amounted So during our conversation today, when we spe 14 Q. to. Q. So at the time that you bought the property, did you property in Candelaria or near Candelaria, w 15 about the intend to sell it quickly for profit? 16 talking about the parcel of property that's depicted on t A. I wanted to sell part of it. Yes, I did. I map? 17 wanted ,, to sell part of it for profit. 18 A. Yes. Q. Was there an interested buyer at that time? Q. When did you first visit the property? 19 A. There was. 20 A. Oh, in -- I would say with two to three years prior Q. Who was that person? 21 to -- to the property, being sold. A. I don't remember her name. It was -- that's Q. Prior to buying it? 22 been 23 nine -- eight, nine years ago. A. Yes. Q. Did you visit it specifically because you were Q. Do you recall what part that person was 24 interested in buying? 25 interested in buying it?
................... ...... ............................ ................ , .................

5 (Pages 14 to 17) Esquire Deposition Services Phone (210) 331-2280 (800) 558-3670 Electronically signed by Shana Wise (401-340-211-9479) 9901 IH-10 West Ste. 630T.X. 78230 San Antonio, Fax (210) 558-3670 1 bO420e4-5c40-48d7-b2d5-406f2d5221a3

Case 1:07-cv-00012-MCW
Robert Ingrum

Document 15-3

Filed 01/25/2008

Page 5 of 20
December 10, 2007

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A. Yes. 1 You know, it's funny. This property is not Q. Did you ever use the property recreational -2 legal -- is not fenced. And they run cattle on unfe recreationally? 3 property. And then at the end of the year, I don't kn A. A little bit. in the extent that I would camp out how they do this, you know. But they -- well, 4 they -there, yes. 5 thing, they all know each other. You know, they've a Q. Did you camp out there before buying it? 6 all -- they -- you know, they've all lived there for A. No, I did not. I don't think -- I don't7remember -generations. And it's funny how they -- how they do But, you know, the -- if your cattle drift up the riv I don't think so. You know, the -- the two years of 8 negotiations back and forth, one area you -- you know, back and-,- they seem to be able to -- to handle 9 miles, they Q. When I forth just -- oh, it just seems like a long -- a long -- did you say they, who do you mean? 10 actually go out there and camp out before -- during A. Well, the other people in the -- in that area 11 negotiations? I don't remember. I don't think that I did, but other -- I call them natives, for lack 12 other -- the it's possible I could have. 13 word. Native -- native to that -- native to that par Q. When you were interested -- first became interested 14 world. in buying the property near Candelaria, what use wasQ. Do people cross between the Mexican side and t 15 being made of the property at that time? 16 U.S. side of the Rio Grande on a regular basis? A. Yes, they do. There's a bridge there. Little A. Nothing. Nothing. 17 Q. Werethere any lessees? 18 bridge. A little -- like you see in the jungle movi A. I'm sure there were -- well, actually, 19 there was And just for the record, the property is locat Q. -there was a fellow that had been out there for year -- I mean, the Rio Grande River? 20 adjacent to like 30, 40, 50 years. I don't remember his -- rememberYes, it is. 21 A. his name. But he had a few head of cattle out there. But a So do ranchers run cattle on your property and Q. very 22 few, 23 your knowledge, and not pay? Q. A few head of cattle? 24 A. Oh, yes. Yes. That's... A. Yes. He had been on the property. I don't think he 25 Q. And you don't mind that they do that? Page 19 Page 21

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ever paid anybody any money. I think he just 1 ran a few head ofthere's not much I can do about it, A. Well, cattle on it. 2 I'm not out there very often. And they -- if they m Q. Do you know that individual's name? 3 little money off of it, good for them. They're ver 4 people. It's just a different -- a different world A. No, I don't. Q. Did anybody lease the property from you 5 after family-oriented. you bought it? 6 Q. Do you remember your first visit to the property? A. They did, yes. 7 A. No, I don't. Q. Who leased it from you after you purchased it? Before you bought the property, about how many ti 8 Q. A. A fellow named -- well, 1 say he leases it. He you visit total? 9 did pays me occasionally. He doesn't pay me on a regular basis. A. Oh, you mean before the property actually closed 10 Antenacio is -- actually is his first name. 11 actually don't I Q. Yes. know his last name. Antenacio. But he doesn't pay A. Many times. regularly. 12 You wouldn't want him to lease anything from 13 you. Q. Is that approximately ten times? Q° With his payment record? 14 A. Oh, no. More than that. I'd say 20 or 30 times. A. That's right. 15 Q. And what -- approximately what years are we talk 16 about 20 or 30 times that you visited? Q. Do you know -A. If he ever wants to lease anything from you, call me 17 A. Probably '97, '98. In that area, '97, '98. and I'll you a copy of his -- of his payment18 send record. Did you typically drive the same route to get th Q. 19 A. Yes. Q. Was there a written lease with Antenacio? A. No. I don't think so, no. 20 Q. What kind of a vehicle did you use, if any, to property? Q. Do you know for what purpose he uses the21 traverse the property when you visited? A. He has -- runs a few head of cattle on 22 Not I have a four-wheel drive vehicle. it. A. 23 Q. What make? many. 24 A. I Q. A few head of cattle. Does that mean less than 50? would rent a -- I have a pickup, but it's not A, Oh, yes. Maybe -- I'm going to guess ten or tbur-wheel drive. So i would just -- 1 would rent a 25 15.

6 (Pages 18 to 21) Esquire Deposition Services Phone (210) 331-2280 (800) 558-3670 Electronically signed by Shana Wise (401-340-211-9479) 9901 IH-10 West Ste. 630 San Antonio, T.X. 78230 Fax (210) 558-3670 1 bO420e4-5c40-4867-b265-406f265221 a3

Case 1:07-cv-00012-MCW
Robert Ingrum

Document 15-3

Filed 01/25/2008

Page 6 of 20
December 10, 2007

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is today? 1 river road. A. No, I don't. 2 Q. Is that a paved road? Q. Do you think the price per acre has increased or 3 A. No, it's not. decreased since you bought it? Q. Before you bought the property, did you -- how 4 A. Oh, I'm sure it's increased. 5 of it had you seen before you bought it? Q. During those 20 or 30 visits before you closed on 6 A. I'd seen all of it long -- along the river ro the property, were there times when the level 7 of the Rio Grande go inland, away from the river road? Q. Did you River was over the banks? 8 A. No. lt-- no, 1 did not. A. Yes. It -- it floods, 1 think, every year. 9 Q. Is the majority of the property located out of Q. Is there a particular time of year when it floods? 10 from the river road? A. Not -- not that I know of. 11 A. It seems like you can see the -- you know, I m Q. And when the Rio Grande floods, does it 12 you can see the mountains from -- from river road. T wash out part of the road? 13 good bit of it that -- that -- that's out of view, but A. I've never actually -- I haven't seen 14 ahappen, that good bit of it that -- that you can see. where it washed out the road. I have not seen that Q. From the river road, then, the -- is it fair to happen. 15 16 Q. Are there creeks that run across the road? that the property increases in elevation and so that t A. There are dry -- what they call dry creeks. majority of the property is higher in elevation than 17 A. Q. If there's a rainy period, are those creeks then Yes. 18 flowing with water? 19 Q. -- what you can see from the river road? A. Yes. 20 A. Yes. Q. And the water flows across the road? 21 Q. Is it -- would you say that the terrain is hill A. I've never actually seen that happen. I've never Yes. 22 A. been out there when that happens, but I -- I 23 believe it Q. Did you ever fly over the property? probably does happen. 24 A. Yes. Q. Have you been there before you bought 25 -- focusing it Q. And you flew over it before buying it? Page 27 Page 29

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on that period before you bought it, were there times when the remember that. I don't remember whethe 1 A. 1 don't .. road was washed out? 2 did or not. But I did -- 1 have flown over it in a sm A. I never -- no. I never -- that never -- I Piper -- small, like a 172 or something like that. 3 was never out there prior to buying it when 1 couldn't drive the full 4 Q. Areyou a pilot? three or -- three -- about three miles. Not quite three miles. 5 A. No, I'm not. Q. In the four-wheel drive? 6 Q. And how did it come about that you flew over the A. Yes. Uh-huh. property? 7 Q. After acquiring the property, would you also visitI guess l just wanted to look at it. 8 A. in a four-wheel drive? 9 Q. So was that after you bought the property? A. Yes. 10 A. I'm sure it was. I don't remember. I really do north? Q. Can you approach your property from the 11 remember, but t -- I think it was afterwards. A. Probably. But I never have. Q. About how many years after? 12 Q. Why not? 13 A. Oh, probably -- it was pretty close to about the A. Because it's much longer. 14 time that 1 -- I really -- that 1 -- that it -- that it Q. Instead of going through Candelaria, then, actually sold. Might have been a little time -- a li 15 if you're approaching from the north, what town would you go through? 16 before. Might have been a little bit afterwards. I' A. I believe now that you would turn off 17 Valentine, at not sure. Q. Around the time that you were closing on the which is a little town west of Mafia. 18 Q. Turning off of Route 90? 19 purchase? A. You -- you -- yes. You would take 90 -- you A. Right. Somewhere along in there. 20 would take 90 west of Marfa. And about 20 or 30 miles, there's a 21 Q. Did you take any pictures? little town called Valentine. And somewhere22 along A. No, I did not. I'll give you the name of the bu in there, maybe not -- maybe five miles on either side23 oh, actually, won't -- you don't want to -- you don't w -- pilot so you here's Valentine right up here. Somewhere along overthere, with him. in there 24 there would be a road that would go down to 25 river -- to the Q. It was a rough flight?

8 (Pages 26 to 29) Esquire Deposition Services 9901 IH-10 West Ste. 630 Phone (210) 331-2280 (800) 558-3670 Electronically signed by Shana Wise (401-340-211-9479) San Antonio, T.X. 78230 Fax (210) 558-3670 1 bO420e4-5c40-48d7-b2d 5-406f2d5221 a3

Case 1:07-cv-00012-MCW
Robert Ingrum

Document 15-3

Filed 01/25/2008

Page 7 of 20
December 10, 2007

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A. Oh, he was from -- he had -- migrated 1 down A. Yes. from 2 Alaska. And he'd been flying, been a bush country Q. The up pilot first lawyer? in -- when I pulled up to the Mafia airport, 3 think IThe first lawyer. I remember his first name was I A. was the Ben. And he knew all about it. He'd -- like I say, he' first customer he had had in a long time. 4 Q. Did you have to pre-arrange the flight or been -- you 5 could I think he had actually represented the origina just show up at the Mafia airport? 6 the owner that had the 36 heirs. 7 Q. that A. I just showed up and asked if there was anybody So the-- Chanosky? A. Chanosky. That was the original owner. And-- I' would... 8 9 sorry. 1/brgot your -- Ben was really a terrific guy. T Q. Take you for a flight? 10 what I was thinking about, old Ben. But he was -- when A. Take me for a ride. Q. Before you bought the property, did you ll know that and then the other one that took over that I don left -12 remember, The other one was nice, too. the military was doing work on the river road in 1998? A. You know, I believe that I --just about the time 13 Q. Alan Wittenberg? A. That's -that it -- that it closed, I believe that shortly thereafter, I yes. Alan was nice, too. 14 15 Q, Did Alan provide any documents to you about the got a -- a letter, a right of-- a right of-- a request to sign a right-of-entry letter. 1 believe right along in that 16 property? time is when I got that letter. Right along aboutA. Oh, I'm sure he did. Both of them did. And Alan 17 somewhere -might right I don't know whether it was before or -- or 18 after. Buthave worked -- I don't remember. I don't remembe along in that little time frame I got a letter with -- it was a 19 Q. Do you recall, did Alan -- or I believe it would right-of-entry letter. 20 have been Alan Wittenberg. Did he send you any environm 21 documents Q. What about the year previous, in 1998, before you about the property that you recall? entered into any contract on the property? Did you A. I don't -- I don't think so. 22 know that the military was working on the road? 23 Q. And you bought the property as is? A. You know, I don't remember that. 1 just know --Yes. 24 A, I do know that I got a letter -- that 1 got this right-of-entry does that mean, as is? 25 Q, And what Page 31 Page 33

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request somewhere in that little area, somewhere, maybe a me, it means that you just buy it for -- you buy 1 A. To month or two before. Maybe a month or two afterwards. I for -- you buy it on your -- on your own inspection, that 2 don't remember. 3 don't expect -- you don't expect them to have any obliga 4 to -- to fix anything. Q. Month or two betbre or after closing? A. Closing. Somewhere along in there. And... 5 Q. So you bought it with any defects or faults? 6 A, Right. Q. And you closed in 1999? A. I'd have to check the records. 7 MR. TRAUBEN: Offthe record a second. 8 Q. Okay. We're going to do that. (OFF THE RECORD.) Before you closed - and the record will9show it (Exhibit 2 marked.) was in 999; I'll represent that to you - did the sellers (BY MR. TRAUBEN) Mr. Ingrum, you've been handed 1 10 Q. provide any documentation to you regarding the 11 property?the reporter has marked as Exhibit 2 to your deposit what A. You know, my recollection of this was that it was -12 lt's a January 8, 1998 letter to Alan Wittenberg from Da that we had at least two years of contentious 13 conversation with Wilkinson, who is with Geo-Marine. And he was forwardin this. The first lawyer that we dealt with that was environmental assessment, which is a lengthy document. 14 representing the buyers died. He was a man in hisall of 80s. l attached. But I -- 1 did attach the cover 15 late it is don't remember his name. But I remember that16 died. So we he to the environmental assessment that he was forwarding. had to go through that. And they had to agree17 another Can on take a look? And also look at the next on -- you another -- that they had -- another lawyer. And this was a 18 pages. And the question is whether you were -- this help fine old gentleman that I even tbrget where he was from. your recollection of whether or not you were pro 19 refresh But he was very congenial. And then he died. And he'd been -- environmental assessment before you closed on 20 copy of an he'd known about the -- he had been -- he had 21 known about the the property. purchase of property for all of his life. You know, 1 mean, he'dA. I've never seen this, to the best of my 22 been -- I guess you would say he was kind of a family -- the recollection. 23 family 24 Q. Okay. We can set that aside then. attorney. Q. The congenial attorney who passed away? 25 Does the county own the river road?

9 (Pages 30 to 33) Esquire Deposition Services Phone (210) 331-2280 (800) 558-3670 Electronically signed by Shana Wise (401-340-211-9479) San Antonio, 9901 IH-10 West Ste. 630T.X. 78230 Fax (210) 558-3670 1 bO420e4-5c40-4867-b265-406f265221 a3

Case 1:07-cv-00012-MCW
Robert Ingrum

Document 15-3

Filed 01/25/2008

Page 8 of 20
December 10, 2007

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A. Yes. 1 March of'99? Is that correct? 2 Q. -- depicted in Exhibit 1 ? Q. Yes. We'll seethat. A. Right. 3 A. So no, I didn't pay any property taxes in '98. 4 Q. If you look at the fourth page of the earnest Q. Do you -- did you retain a copy of the earnest mone money contract - it's page six of 13 of the fax - paragraph 11. in your files? 5 contract 6 A. No, I did not. I was looking for it the other da A. Okay. 7 and -- John Q. You see a reference there to Abel Telez, T-e-l-e-z? had asked me to see if I could find it. An 8 couldn't find anything. A. Yes. Q. Is hethe lessor? 9 (Exhibit 6 marked.) 10 A. He -- well, he was -- when I came along, he Q. You've been handed what the reporter has marked had been -- he had been -- he had run livestock 11 that ranch for on Exhibit 6. It's entitled amendment of contract of sale years and years and years. He was an older gentleman. But he the bottom, March 16, 1999. 12 it's dated, at never paid anybody anything. He never -- nobody ever got any 13 Mr. lngrum, is that your signature in the lower 14 right? money out of him. 15 bought Q. Did he continue to use the property after you A. Yes. 16 it? Q. And that's your wife's signature beneath yours? 17 A~ Yes, it is, A, I suppose he did. Q. Do you know where he is today? 18 Q. And there was an adjustment in the purchase price A. No, I don't. I doubt that he's still 19 forHe was alive. the Candelaria property at the time of closing? in his late 70s when -- he had been out there for 30, 40 years. 20 A. Yes. And I tried to get money out of him and never was able to. you know why the price was adjusted? 21 Q. And do Once or twice. And... 22 A. Because 1 -- we didn't want the vacant lot. The 23 vacant lot was not worth what it was -- there were more Q. How did you communicate with him? 24 owed -A. Well, on that -- he lived in the little town of--as I remember, there were more taxes owed on th not can -- Ruidosa. There's another little 25 lot than it was worth. town near there. I
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1 Q. Okay. And that was being deleted. And that's believe that's where he lived. Q. Did you send him mail? Did you have an address for 2 above, A. Right. him? 3 A. No. No, I just asked -- asked somebody, where And also, had a survey been done of the Cand 4 Q. does Mr. Telez live. And they would say that he lived in Ruidosa, 5 property by this time? 6 A. It was 15 R-u-i-d-o-s-a. That's a little town about 20 or 30 -- about -- the survey was done somewhere righ miles from Candelaria. And I stopped and talkedin there. 7 to him one time. And he -- he couldn't -- he couldn't 8 couldn't pay me -Q. Okay. anything. So that was the end of that. 9 A. And normally it would have been done -- it w Q. Did you ever speak with him again after that? been done before the -- the closing. 10 have A. I don't-- no, l just met him one time. ll Q. Okay. Q. Did you ever speak with him on the telephone? 12 A. Normally it would be. So I'm assuming that i 13 A. No, I did not. Q. But the price per acre didn't change? Q. And just above that paragraph, paragraph ten A. No. 14 -A. Yes. 15 Q. All right. You can go to the next-- our next 16 Q. -- it says possession..It says, the possession of (Exhibit 7 marked.) the property shall be delivered to buyer at closing. Is this Exhibit 7 -- do you recognize what Ex 17 Q. Correct? 18 A. Yes. is, actually? A. I recognize -- as I see, that it's a -- that Q. So you took possession after closing? 19 A° At closing. 20 a -- a general warranty deed. 21 Q. Okay. Do you know who paid any property taxes in Did you receive this at the time of closing? Q. 1998? 22 A. Is it -- does it show that I signed this or... A. No, I don't. 23 Q. Well, in the -- is the normal practice that t 24 recipient of a deed signs or -Q. Did you? 25 A. No. A. No. Let's see. Let's see. ! -- it was closed in

12 (Pages 42 to 45) Esquire Deposition Services Phone (210) 331-2280 (800) 558-3670 Electronically signed by Shana Wise (401-340-211-9479) 9901 IH-10 West Ste. 630 San Antonio, T.X. 78230 Fax (210) 558-3670 1 bO420e4-5c40-48d7-b2d5-406f2d5221a3

Case 1:07-cv-00012-MCW
Robert Ingrum

Document 15-3

Filed 01/25/2008

Page 9 of 20
December 10, 2007

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1 Q. -- the guarantor? MR. CARSEY: I've -, I've seen that. That's 2 fine. A. No. No. The recipient would not sign it, no. 3 MR. TRAUBEN: -- have the oversized document Q. The guarantor would sign the deed -entered A. The guarantor would sign. 4 into the record because it was -- cost more to h 5 copied. Q. And is this signed by the guarantor? 6 A. Yes, it is. Q. (BY MR. TRAUBEN) Do you recognize what this is? Q, And this is the deed conveying the Candelaria I certainly do. 7 A. property to you and to your wife? 8 Q. And is that your handwriting upside down at the A. Yes. It appears to be that. 9 bottom? Q. And did you retain a copy of this in your records? actually looks like my handwriting. 10 A. It 11 Q. And then in the survey number 16, survey sectio A. I did not. Q. This is Bates numbered D, as in David,12 through a note, a handwritten note. Is that your hand 21 there's 13 26. Do you know whether you made a copy of this available to A. Oh... your attorney? 14 Q. There's a square and a note underneath, gravel A. This-- &this deed? 15 created by Corps of Engineers. You see where I'm -16 A. Yes, 1 see that. Q. Yes. A. No, I did not. I wasn't able to find any papers Is that your writing? 17 Q. relating to... 18 A. I'm -- I'm quite sure it is. Q. Did you have the deed recorded? 19 Q. And did I read that correctly? It's a little f A. Oh, yes. It was recorded. 20 I just want to make sure we see the same thing. Q. Did you do that or did -21 A. Yes. Gravel pit created by Corps of Engineers. A. No. 22 Q, And then also towards the bottom of the survey 23 section number 14, there's a word in quotes, bog -Q. -- the seller? A. Bog. A. The title company did. 24 Q. The title company. Rattikin? 25 Q. -- double underlined. Page 47 Page 49

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l A. Rattikin. 1 assume that they did. You know, I want looks like -- I'm sure that's mine. That -A. That 2 to check on it, but I -- I assume that they did. that looks like my writing. Q. Okay. And is this the survey that was prepared in Q. During that -- the time period after you entered 3 4 closing, did closing? advance of into the earnest money contract and -- and then you continue to visit the property, as we had 5 discussedYes, it is. a. 6 previously? Q. Where you wrote in bog, that area down below -A. Yes. Uh-huh. 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And during that time period, were you able to -- does the river run close to the road at that e. 9 point? traverse the river road? A. Yes, I was. I was able to traverse the river road would be -- let me -- actually, I'm going to ha 10 A. It 11 until the Corps of Engineers showed up out there, to look at thatand see. It shows that it does. It looks whenever it period was. 12 me think here. It seems like the river would be about Q. The date at the top of the deed, March 13 1999, just a guess, from there. 16, feet, does that refresh your recollection as to the date of the creeks run through that area? 14 Q. Any closing? 15 A. I don't think -- no. I don't think so. A. It does not. But I -- I have no reason to believe I have the full-sized version of Exhibit 8 i 16 Q. And 17 you need to see it. that that's not correct. (Exhibit 8 marked.) 18 A. Okay. No. That's okay. 19 Q. Q. For the record, you've been handed what's been I didn't want to put it into the record. marked as Exhibit 8. 20 A. Okay. 21 MR. TRAUBEN: And I'm -- I only have two (Exhibit 9 marked.) copies. 22 Q. And, Mr. lngrum, you've been handed what has been MR. CARSEY: Okay. That's fine. 23 marked as Exhibit 9 to your deposition. And for the rec 24 has Bates numbers US00565 through 00570. And earlier i MR. TRAUBEN: This actually -- if you want to 25 deposition you referred to a right-of-entry. Is this a see the oversized -- I didn't want to --

Case 1:07-cv-00012-MCW
Robert Ingrum

Document 15-3

Filed 01/25/2008

Page 10 of 20
December 10, 2007

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l photocopy of the right-of-entry that -A. I wouldn't remember that. A. Yes. This looks like it does, yes. 2 Q. If you look at the top of the first page it say Q. And if you look at the second page, is 3that your March 12th, 1999, Holiday Inn, Uvalde. 4 A. Right. signature? 5 Q. Did -- did you fax this document from the Holid A. Yes, it is. Inn in Uvalde? Q. And you signed this on March 13, 1999? 6 A. Yes. 7 A. Yes, I did. I used their fax machine. 8 Q. So you actually faxed this a day before -- so d Q. Just a few days before closing? 9 that indicate to you that you may have signed this act A. Uh-huh. 10 before the closing? Q. Is that a yes? A. A. Well, let's see here. That appears to 11 right, Yes, it does. be yes. 12 Q. Was the closing held up, to your recollection? 13 Q. If you look at the page that's marked 568 in A. Idon't remember that. the lower right-hand corner. 14 Q. In real estate, does that often happen, where the A. 568. 15 closing may occur a few days after it was initially s A. 1 think it probably is. Q. 568. It's dated February 26th, 1999. 16 You see where it says, permission granted to do road work on the Q. Well, when you wrote the note to Mr. Wittenberg 17 property in 18 think you were forwarding the signed right-of-entry? Presidio County, Texas? 19 AI To him? 1 would thinkthat I -- I would think th A. 568. Okay. Yes. Okay. Do you recall this? 20 that's true. Q. 21 Q. Okay. And if you look at the second page -- we A. I don't recall it, but that -- that appears to be my signature. 22 let me back up before I ask this. Q. That's your signature, and that's your wife's 23 When you sent it to Mr. Wittenberg, was it your 24 understanding that he would provide it to the militar signature below? A. Yes. Uh-huh. 25 A. I would think that he -- I would think that tha Page 51 Page 53

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Q. And did you mail that note to Mr. Wittenberg? 1 true, yes. A. I'm sure that I did. I don't remember doing that, 2 Q. You didn't deal directly with the military; you but I -- I'm sure that I did. 3 communicating through Mr. Wittenberg? Q. Did you-4 A. I think that's probably -- yes. A. Well, I'm not sure that I did. I -- 1 don't --Q. Okay. If you look on the second page, above th 5 I just don't remember. signature of paragraph six, it says, the owner does, 6 Q. Well, let me ask you. What-7 does not grant the government the right to use any bu 8 timber, or any other products of the land. A. Oh. Q. Is there a fax line or something that helps -- A. Iseethat. 9 A. Yeah. There's a fax -- yeah. 10 Q. Did you circle either does or does not? Q. And what does that tell you? 11 A. I can't -- it looks to me like there wasn't 12 anything, A. The fax? Q. Yes. 13 Q. Do you -- you left that blank? A. That I faxed it to him on that date. 14 A. That's what it looks like to me, that it was le 15 blank. Q. Did you sign the right-of-entry around that same time and postdate it, anticipating the date of closing? And you have not seen a copy of this where it's 16 Q. A. I don't understand that question. 17 one is circled or crossed out? Q. Well, the right-of-entry -- l'm just wondering 18 A. No, 1 have not. whether you signed the right-of-entry in February 1999 and -- CARSEY: Let me -- let me ask -- I want to 19 MR. and anticipating that you would have closed on March 15th. aAnd 20 ask you question. so you wrote in -- so you dated the right-of-entry March 13th. TRAUBEN: Okay. 21 MR. Or did you sign -- you think you signed it on 22 date that the (OFF THE RECORD.) it's indicated on page two? Is that still not23 clear?Q. (BY MR. TRAUBEN) Mr, Ingrum, you've had to leav 24 the -A. That really isn't clear. And 1 -- 1 really would room to speak with counsel. Is there any part of Q. Okay. 25 testimony that you need to correct?

14 (Pages 50 to 53) Esquire Deposition Services Phone (210) 331-2280 (800) 558-3670 Electronically signed by Shana Wise (401-340-211-9479) 9901 IH-10 West Ste. 630 San Antonio, T.X. 78230 Fax (210) 558-3670 1 bO420e4-5c40-48d7-b2d5-406f2d5221 a3

Case 1:07-cv-00012-MCW
Robert Ingrum

Document 15-3

Filed 01/25/2008

Page 11 of 20
December 10, 2007

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A. Yes. I want to correct this on this -- on 1 this Looking at the Exhibit 5, if you could turn to handwritten letter on the 26th of February, I sent that to -- page of the fax, which is page four of the e 2 the sixth after consulting with John, he wanted me to make3this clear, money contract. that this was evidently sent to him on the 26th of February and 4 A. The sixth page... that that was not adequate. And that if you'll go back to Sixth page of the fax, page four of the contract 5 Q. the -- to the -- the -- the actual printed form, 6 states that it A. Okay. on -- that the Mail Center USA faxed this to me 7 March 12th on Q. Enumerated paragraph nine, titled closing. and that I, in turn, faxed it on May 12th from the HolidayYes. 8 A. Inn in Uvalde -- faxed it back to them from the -- the regular 9 Q. This paragraph says that the closing of the sale printed form, 10 shall be within 90 days of the execution of this agree THE WITNESS: Is that what we're -within seven days after objections to title have been 11 MR. CARSEY: That's-12 whichever is the later. THE WITNESS: -- that -- that situation? 13 The closing did not occur within 90 days. Is MR. CARSEY: If that's what your recollection that correct? 14 15 A. This was May 21st, 1998. No, it did not. THE WITNESS: Okay. 16 Q. When -- or do you know why the closing did not o Q. (BY MR. TRAUBEN) And did you date it March 13th on 90 days -17 within March 12th, anticipating closing -18 A. We had four years. Now that I can figure 1996 h A. Yes. 19 come up, we had at least four years of a very contenti Q. -- on -20 again, 36 heirs. You can just let your mind run on th A. Right. 21 And it was a very contentious closing that went on and Q. -- the property -22 on. And, I mean, a lot of the details, I simply don't A. Right. Yes. 23 remember. But I do know that if it -- anyway, that's.. Q. And they - it was held up a few days? 24 Q. So that's -- that was -- the cause of delay was A. Yes. Uh-huh. 25 there was some dissension among the heirs? Page 55 Page 57

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Q. Okay. So when you sent the note to Mr.1 Wittenberg just -- there was just everything in the wo A. We in February '99, did you expect that he would then inform the 2 everything that you could imagine -- some argument government that they had your approval -3 again, we had a death. The old family lawyer died at A. Yes. I was communicating. ! did not havepoint -- time. And I don't remember exactly when that any in 4 now that we're talking about it, I did not have But we went through that. And that certainly delayed any 5 communication with the government. 6 period -- long period of time. Q. Directly? 7 Q. Was that David Ritzwoller? A. Directly. It was all through Mr. Wittenberg.A. No, No. It was Ben... 8 Again, this is something that happened eight, 9 MR. CARSEY: Gilbert. nine years ago. And this is my recollection, is that Ben Gilbert. 10 A. I went through Mr. Wittenberg. 11 Q. (BY MRI TRAUBEN) That was before the May '98 Q, That's fine. 12 contract, though, that he had passed away? A. I just don't remember whether I actually -- A. would I I'm pretty sure it was, yes. 13 have no reason to. I just don't remember. But my Q. Was the contention between you and the sellers recollection 14 is that I went through Mr. Wittenberg. 15 was it among the sellers? Q. And you were -- you don't remember, you're saying, 16 A. I think it was basically among the sellers. I having direct contact with government -17 we obviously argued about everything in the world. T A. Military. 18 just -- you know, just a typical -- not a typical. Bu Q. -- military? 19 was -- it was -- it was quite a bit of arguing going A. I don't remember direct contact with them. And.,. 20 Q. Okay. Can you do me a favor and go back to Q. Did you have representation throughout this pro 21 Exhibit 5? There should be one in front of 22 with a sticker you or did you handle it yourself?. on it, That's the 13-page fax that we were 23 looking at. handled it myself. A. I A. Okay. Let's see. This is it right here. Okay.Because of your experience in real estate? 24 Q. Q. We'll get those straightened out later. 25 A. Well, that might have been -- might have been t

15 (Pages 54 to 57) Esquire Deposition Services 9901 IH-10 West Ste. 630 Phone (210) 331-2280 (800) 558-3670 Electronically signed by Shana Wise (401-340-211-9479) San Antonio, T.X. 78230 Fax (210) 558-3670 1 bO420e4-5c40-48d7-b2d 5-406f2d 5221 a3

Case 1:07-cv-00012-MCW
Robert Ingrum

Document 15-3

Filed 01/25/2008

Page 12 of 20
December 10, 2007

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problem. 1 And to make that long trip out there and then the -- a Q. But you -- you were comfortable in handling know that the road is -- that you can't -- you have 2 to it yourself because of your experience? 3 access. A. I thought. Yes. I thought I was. But... 4 But the answer to your question is I don't know Q. Well, after April 1999, how many times have you times that I've been out there, but it's been 5 how many visited the property? 6 made a lot of trips out there, but never -- well, not A. Well, I'm trying to think. They were 7 out trips out there. I've called a lot. And when they tol there 8 working on that road. They ended sometime -- I thinkwas not -- not open, then I -- of course I wouldn road they -they left sometime in May of that year. I'm 9 not there. But I sure. think they left the latter part of April or 10 --Q. Have you had any use of the property since 1999? the or sometime in May. And when they left, I couldn't -- the road was -- they 11 A. Not really. I leased it to a wildlife photogra had dug a -- dug a lake, That's what they'd done. They dug years ago. And I got a guy there in -- i 12 two or three a lake, what we called the bog: And -- and when it rained or 13 Candelaria who had a lbur-wheeler, and we went out th when -- and I couldn't get -- when it rained or got to the river 14 when try to get a -- go around the bog. And we got came up, you know, it would go back down right away, but it 15 and had to walk back to Candelarial would fill the bog up -- or fill the lake up, andQ. Where did you get stuck? 16 you couldn't -- you could couldn't access the property. In the bog. We tried to go around -- we went i 17 A. So it wasn't many -- for instance, this year, 18 the bog and almost got stuck, and got out. And then w here we are in the middle of-- of December, and that --to go around the bog -- and there's a little 19 we tried that road has been closed all year. Now, I think -- kind of adryingspot right next to it, and we got stuck 20 so it's soft up. It's possible that -- anyway. Anyway. To answer your you aware of-- there's a creek called Capo 21 Q. Are question, I don't remember how many times.22 Creek? But I have called -- I bet I've talked to Terry -- oh,23 the border patrol I know where Capote Creek is. A. Yes. Yes, guy. 24 Q. And that's north of Candelaria? Q. Terry Norman? 25 A. Right. Page 59 Page 61

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A. Terry Norman, who is agent in charge out there. And that's-1 Q. I've talked to him many, many, many times in the last few 2 A. It's between my property and Candelaria. years. I mean, I'm sure he thought I was some3 kind of nut to Q. Between your property and Candelaria? ask him, is that road accessible. And he invariably said, no, 4 A. It's about -- this property that I've got is ab it's not. 5 four miles from Candelaria. Capote Creek is about h Q. Did you also speak with somebody by the 6 name of Bert It's about -- about two miles from Candelaria. Hernandez? 7 Q. And you have to cross Capote Creek? A. What was the first name? 8 A. Yes. Q. Bert or Humberto? 9 Q. You drive through the water? A. Bert. Humberto. Yes. Humberto was another one. Right. That's got a firm bottom. It's not lik 10 A. Humberto, Terry, Mr. Furgeson, who is from Brackettville, aI crossed -- I was there a week ago. And th I was -11 little town near where I was raised, Humberto. Humberto there was water -- water in the creek bed, bu 12 was -- was the -- Humberto was stuck out there and had to -- you know, he 13 a firm bottom. And I crossed that in a pickup, no pr got stuck in that bog and had to walk back to Candelaria. Once in four-wheel drive. 14 Not in -- not you've done that, once you've walked back to 15 from that bog, -Q. When were you last there? it's a -- it kind of slows you up. But Terry 16 Newman A. Norman. week ago. -- About a Q. Norman. 17 Q. Roughly December 2nd or December 3rd? A. I've talked to him more than anybody else. But I was there Sunday -- Sunday a week ago. 18 A. that's because he's been there the most. But 19 rest of the Q. Approximately - I don't have a calendar - Dece them -- Humberto was there a lot, but 1 don't 20 but st? -1 then -then he was transferred over to Arizona on a 21 or A. December 1 st. Whatever that -- Sunday a week a TDY something, temporary duty. And so I lost track with him. And was there. then Terry 22 retired. And, you know, they've got Mafia, Alpine, the Or the-- yeah. Q. little 23 station -- substation south of Marfa by five 24 miles. You (SOTTO VOCE DISCUSSION.) know, all those guys. I mean, I've called and called and called. 25 Q. (BY MR. TRAUBEN) December 2rid. I've been

16 (Pages 58 to 61) Esquire Deposition Services 9901 IH-10 West Ste. 630 Phone (210) 331-2280 (800) 558-3670 Electronically signed by Shana Wise (401-340-211-9479) San Antonio, T.X. 78230 Fax (210) 558-3670 1 b0420e4-5c40-48d 7-b2d 5-406f2d 5221 a3

Case 1:07-cv-00012-MCW
Robert Ingrum

Document 15-3

Filed 01/25/2008

Page 13 of 20
December 10, 2007

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1 regular, formal appraisal of this. This fellow does a lo MR. CARSEY: Where is that? THE WITNESS: I had it this morning. 2 work for the Texas Highway Department. So he has been in 3 Q. (BY MR. TRAUBEN) Well, maybe during a break business 37 years. So he has a lot of experience along t -A. Okay. Okay. 4 line. And we will locate the big pit and the several ot Q. -- we can work out additional documents. 5 smaller pits with a GPS location. 6 Q. You did not do that before filing suit? A. Okay. 7 A. Before... Q. But... Q. Bringing this lawsuit. A. But you -- you have -- I sent -- you have 8copies of 9 those pictures, also. There's just one other -- it showed No, 1 did not. A. No. the -- anyway. 10 MR. TRAUBEN: I'll have this marked. ll MR. CARSEY: You took this a month ago, And he (Exhibit 11 marked.) doesn't have copies of it. 12 Q. (BY MR. TRAUBEN) Mr: Ingrum, what's been marked a THE WITNESS: Okay. 13 Exhibit 11 is titled river road site visit December 4, 2 14 MR. CARSEY: Because I don't have copies of And I'll represent to you that these pictures and this map it. Because I didn't know you took them. 15 prepared by the U.S. Border Patrol. And they visited the 16 property on December 4, 2007. And first let's look at the THE W1TNESS: Okay, Okay. Q. (BY MR. TRAUBEN) Okay. Going back to the picture 17 map-18 of the truck in D 12. Do you know how long that truck had been A. Okay. 19 there? e.-- which is the second page of the exhibit. 20 You see where there's a red flag marked cable? A. No, I don't. A, 21 Q. Do you know the circumstances of how the truck came Yes. 22 to be there? Q. Looking at this map, can you identify where your A. No, I don't, 23 property begins? If you want to take a pen and go ahead Q. Let's look at DI3. 24 mark approximately where your property begins. 25 A. These two -- they call these the twin -- the t A. Okay. Page 67 Page 69

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Q. Where was this picture taken? 1 sisters, these -- these two mountain peeks right here A. That was taken -- this was taken in 2005. 1 was out 2 right. Right -- these are called the twin sisters rig there early in 2005. That's when I took the picture. 1 walked -- the property line goes straight up li My fence line 3 back -- it was -- it was close to dusk. I walked Now, the fence line, which starts -4 back there in Q. Does that line show up? Or do you need a b 2000 -- early in 2005. January or February. 5 Q, Did you camp out there that night? 6 pen? 7 A. No. 1 can do that. The -- the property lin A. No, I didn't. 8 goes up like that. It splits that. You want me to sk And where was it taken? Q. A. This was in front of the -- of the large gravel pit. 9 whole thing out? There's several others, but this is the large one. 10 Q. Feel free. Yes. Please. 11 Q. Is this the gravel pit that you were complaining A. Okay. Now, the fence line goes up here. A about? 12 it -- then it skirts rather than going on top of the 13 the top -- it -- on the -- on the topo map, it will s A. Yes. One of them. Yes. pit? Q. You're complaining about more than one 14 you have a topo map. It will show that it goes aroun A. Well, there are several pits out there. I that one. That's just a -- well, is that a topo map? 15 mean, 16 be. Let there -- there are several -- but this is the one I was me see. Yeah, this is a topo map. complaining about, yes. But there are other 17 small pits MR. TRAUBEN: Okay. Why don't we have this where they took gravel, road material, whatever you want to call Exhibit 12. 18 marked as it. Q. And specifically, where on your property is this Well, this is -- yeah, this is -- this is the 19 A. pit located? 20 this is -- that's the job. That's the way it is. Alth A. This is about halfway. Now, the latter21 partfence line goes around this. You can actually see it of this month, I'm going to take an appraiser out there with a GPS and, 22 here. you know, hopefully it -- if we can get back23 there Q. (BY MR. TRAUBEN) Okay. We -- first let's have t -- we're going to go out there one way or the other, 24 we have to -if marked. anyway, we're going to go out there with a GPS and A. a 25 do Okay.
s ~:i: *:~*~*0:~¸ = s~ ................... ~:~; ~:m~:~:~:m~ ....... i#

18 (Pages 66 to 69) Esquire Deposition Services Phone (210) 331-2280 (800) 558-3670 Electronically signed by Shana Wise (401-340-211-9479) San Antonio, T.X. 78230 9901 IH-10 West Ste. 630 Fax (210) 558-3670 1 bO420e4-5c40-48d7-b2d5-406f2d5221 a3

Case 1:07-cv-00012-MCW
Robert Ingrum

Document 15-3

Filed 01/25/2008

Page 14 of 20
December 10, 2007

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Q. bypass. 1 Yes. Q. And ifi go-2 A. He's a nice fellow. A. This is one of the most beautiful spots3in Presidio this the -Q. is County right here where this -- this picture on the A. And it good manager. He runs a good station th 4 left -- a doesn't show the real pretty water. But the water is gorgeous 5 Q. ls this the large pit that you referred to? right through there. 6 A. Probably. That's one of them. There's several Q. You're talking about that area around the cable, 7 them. But that looks like -- that looks like it. near the cable -8 Q, And it's in the left panel? A. Right. Right. 9 A, The left panel? Q. Let's go in to - one, two - six pages. 10 Q. The left panel is a photograph taken more from A. Okay, ll distance? Q. Where it's -- the narrative of the border patrol Yes. Uh-huh. That looks like it. Right. Bu 12 A. says, as we walked along, we passed this abandoned truckare several -- there are several of them ther 13 there that's on the left. 14 Q. Do you know where that is located specifically MR. CARSEY: We're here, 15 the -A. Okay. Right. Okay. There's the abandoned truck. don't. But in a month from now, I'll know. 16 A. 1 Q. (BY MR. TRAUBEN) ls that -- is this the same Q. But you referred to the large pit and you des 17 area that is depicted in exhibit -- Exhibit 10? 18 it in your complaint. Is this the pit you complained A, Right. 19 A. I believe the -- 1 believe one on the right Q. Where the -20 yes, 1 believe this is the big one. A. Right. 21 Q. Is this the one that you took a photograph of 22 Exhibit 107 Q. -- the truck at DI2? A. Right. Right. 23 A. I'm almost 100 percent positive that it is. area? Is Q. All right. And so it's off in a muddy 24 there are others. But this is the -- so they did ha that your testimony? 25 chopper out there, Yeah. They didn't go through tha

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A.

Page 77

It's off in very, very muddy... 1 bog. But you see here -2 Q. Well, 1 don't want to become a -- a witness A. It's right out. deposition -3 Q. It's passable -4 A. Okay. Sure. A. Yeah. 5 Q. -- but you're making some assumptions. e. So there are times when it is passable? 6 A. Okay. Well, it says they have a chopper. It A. Right. And you can just see how muddy that picture -7 says was. Just imagine what that -- what that was like. 8 Q. Yes. They -- they did have both. Q, And if you could go to the page -- the third from Oh, they did. Okay. 9 A. the end. 10 Q. But if you look at -- let me count them from A. One, two-- okay. 11 cover page. Go to the front cover and we'll count MR. CARSEY: The next one. 12 together. THE WITNESS: The next one? 13 A. Okay. Q. (BY MR. TRAUBEN) There should be two panels. And Okay. So if you flip one. 14 Q. on the right panel... 15 A. One. MR. CARSEY: That one. 16 Q. Two. A. Okay. 17 A. Two. Q. (BY MR. TRAUBEN) You see the -- there's 18 with aThree. one Q. man standing? 19 A. Three. A. Yes. 20 Q. Four. Q. And I'll represent to you that's Terry Norman. A. Okay. Three, four. 21 A. Okay. 22 Q. Let's see. Now 1 lost count. One, two, three, Q. Probably can't recognize him from this 23 tbur, six -- seven pages in. picture. A. No, 1 can't. He's a pretty nice guy. Have you A. Okay. 24 talked to him? 25 Q. It should be a large picture.

Q.

20 (Pages 74 to 77) 9901 IH-10 West Ste. 630 Esquire Deposition Services Phone (210) 331-2280 (800) 558-3670 Electronically signed by Shana Wise (401-340-211-9479) San Antonio, T.X. 78230 Fax (210) 558-3670 1 b0420e4-5c40-48d 7-b2d 5-406f2d5221 a3

Case 1:07-cv-00012-MCW
Robert Ingrum

Document 15-3

Filed 01/25/2008

Page 15 of 20
December 10, 2007

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1 Q. Well, we'll -- when did you speak with Lupe abo A. Yes. Q. Okay. In the center of that picture,2is about the borrow pit'? that another one of the pits that you're complaining about? 3 A. This was late in 2004. l've got the date here 4 A. I can't answer that question. me double-check to be sure that that's... 5 Late in 2004. I was in there just visiting-Q. Okay. A. The only thing I can tell you is that 6 in a few days visiting around there like I do when l go through the I'm going to have -- I'm going to have them locate You and -- there. Where is -7 Q. it say in 8 A. In Candelaria. with a GPS location, all of them. Q. Well, in -- I guess we'll get to that. Strike that. 9 Q. In Candelaria. 10 And where did you meet Lupe? MR. TRAUBEN: Why don't we go offthe record for a minute. 11 A. He was walking on the street, standing -- you k 12 standing around talking to some friends, or something (OFF THE RECORD.) 13 that. And we got to talking. Are you asking me to tel (Exhibits 13-14 marked.) Q. (BY MR, TRAUBEN) Mr. Ingrum -14 where I -15 A. Yes, sir. Q. Yes. Yes. Q. -- you've been handed what the reporter marked as We got to talking. And he said that he 16 A. Okay. Exhibits 13 and 14. 17 worked on an adjoining ranch. There are several of t A. Okay. 18 there, I don't know which one there was -- which one Q. Exhibit 13 are plaintiffs responses 19 defendant's even know who the neighbors are over there to And I don't first set of interrogatories -20 Because you never see anybody out there. And I talked 21 got to talking. And he said that, well, he had -- tha A. Okay. Q. -- and request for production. And 22 down 14 is Exhibit and went through my ranch, my property, to fish in plaintiffs first supplemental responses to 23 in the Rio Grande because his -- because his property defendant's first set of interrogatories. 24 run on the Rio Grande. And -A. Okay. 25 Q. When you say his property -- I'm sony to interru Page 79 Page 81

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MR. CARSEY: What was 12? 1 but -MR. TRAUBEN: 12 was the map that Mr. lngrum A. Not his property. Where he worked. 2 marked. 3 Q. Where he worked. Q. (BY MR. TRAUBEN) Looking at Exhibit 13, did A. Where heworked. 4 you review these responses? 5 Q. Go on. A. Yes, I did. 6 A. And he said -- and we talked back and forth. An 7 that's Q. And -- and you reviewed them. And look at the last where he said, did you see the -- those -- tha page. You signed a verification to the responses? gravel pit that they dug back in there. And I said, n 8 A. Yes, I did. 9 haven't. And then early in May -- early in 2005, I wa the there Q. Okay. That's your -- your signature on l0 last and saw it and took the pictures that you have. page? ll Q. Well, in 2004, after speaking with Lupe and le A. Yes, it is. 12 about this, did you go and -13 we Q. In your response to interrogatory number two, A. Well, it was late -- it was late in 2004. It w asked you to identify the individual who brought to don't remember when. It was like November or Decem 14 1 your attention the -- the pit on your property. 15 something like that. A. Well, yes. Right. 16 Q. Had you already been to your property that day? Q. And you identified a migrant worker who worked part It -- I -- 1 guess I went up there to try t 17 A. No. of the year on an -- on an adjoining ranch as a ranch hand? -- and couldn't. 1 didn't. I couldn't get 18 get in and A. Right. ! 9 property. And 1 came back and was just talking to -Q. And then in the supplemental responses, you gentleman, this man. And that's when he told me abou 20 identified him as Lupe, in Exhibit 14? 21 gravel pit -- or the -- where they had taken the mate A. Right. I saw that. 22 road material. That was late in 2004. I'm not sure w 23 was November or December. Q. You can take a look at -A. Okay. 1 say that. I'm not sure that that's hisQ. Did he tell you when the borrow pit, for lack 24 name.They're -- you know, that's -- I'm not sure about that. 25 better term, was constructed?

21 (Pages 78 to 81) Esquire Deposition Services Phone (210) 331-2280 (800) 558-3670 Electronically signed by Shana Wise (401-340-211-9479) 9901 IH-10 West Ste. 630T.X. 78230 San Antonio, Fax (210) 558-3670 1 bO420e4-5c40-48d7-b265-406f2d5221 a3

Case 1:07-cv-00012-MCW
Robert Ingrum

Document 15-3

Filed 01/25/2008

Page 16 of 20
December 10, 2007

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A. No. He didn't -- he didn't talk about that. substation south of Marfa. 1 Q. And did he -- did he say that he saw the thing beingyou're saying that sometimes you would go t 2 Q. So dug? 3 Candelaria hoping to get onto your property -A. Well, he said that they had all the -- you know, Hope to go get on -- right. Not many -- not v 4 A. he -- what did he -- did he say? He said, those guys that 5 often. But l would try. But I -- I would try pretty worked on the road - you know, something like 6 you know, talk to Terry Norman, he would tell you tha -- you would slang -- slang Mexican terminology - sure took a called him a lot of times. 7 lot of material -- something along those lines. And8of course, the Q. Were there times -- did you have any other bu only people that had been there for years have9been the Corps in Candelaria other than to visit your property? of Engineer organization. The old -- Presidio County is 10 A. No. No. That would be the only reason. probably -- might very well be the poorest county inQ. And do you have business within Presidio Count the United 11 States. And they had one old beat up -- I mean, and nobody 12 other areas other than -around there has ever seen any equipment from Presidio No. No. 13 A. County up in that neck of the woods. It's kind of an out-of-the-way finish so that the record is clear. 14 Q. Let me place. l 5 A. Okay. Q. Did you at that time ask him how you could get in other than for the purpose of your property? 16 Q. -touch with him again or anything like that? 17 A. No. No, I don't. A. No. No. We just -- you know, they -- if you Q. Okay. So if you call Presidio, if you call Alp talk 18 to people and they give you a cell phone number or something 19 you call Mafia, on the phone logs, you're calling so to -- I can't -- for whatever reason you might want, then a 20 find out the conditions on your property? month later, the cell phone is --is gone. You know, it's -- Right. I have no other reason to call 21 A. Right, it doesn't work anymore. 22 Q. In the Exhibit 14, the supplemental response t Q. Did you speak to any owners of neighboring property'.) 23 interrogatory number three -A. No. I have never spoken to an owner of neighborhood 24 A. Okay. property in -- in -- since I've been out there. Never have. Q. -- that -- you say, I always travel to the prop 25 page 83 Page 85

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Never seen -- you never see anybody on the roads. by car. It's not 1 like -- I've never seen anybody' on the road. Driving from see where you -- in the last sentence of 2 You Candelaria to this property and back, 1 have never encountered 3 your supplemental response? a single individual, either driving or walking, on A. Yes. 4 the road. You just don't -- it's very, very isolated and remote. What type of vehicle are you referring to? 5 Q. Q. Did you volunteer to Lupe that you owned property 1 would rent a -- a four-wheel drive vehicle 6 A. near Candelaria? 7 Enterprise, like a -- some type of four-wheel drive, A. I'm sure I did. That's why -- I'm sure 8 that's why not always Enterprise, But Enterprise or Hertz or -he told me. If this -- you know, the street comer Q. In a four -- four-wheel drive vehicle? 9 conversation. You know, he'll ask you, hey, what you doing out 10 A. A four-wheel drive vehicle. here. And i'd say, well, I'm just -- this place out here. And you say car in response to interrogat ll Q. So when I'm out here just knocking around. You know,12 that type l mean a -- I mean a four-wheel drive, eithe A, of conversation. 13 normally a pickup. Q. Are there times that you would go to Candelaria and 14 Q. Okay. Not a sedan vehicle? not go to your property? 15 A. No, no. No, no, no. A. Oh, yes. There's a lot of times I couldn't -- well, never tried to drive a Cadillac down-16 Q. You I take it back. Not many, but some. Because, you know,No. No. Just look over the side of the road. 17 A. normally I could get a response out of the border patrol. response to interrogatory number four, you s 18 Q. In No, we went up there last week and that road -- the bog is in both the -- Exhibit 13 and 14, either one, y still -19 that -is still full of water, you know. Normally I20 that you were attempting to resell part of the proper would get a response. But sometimes they couldn't -- you 21 know, an interested buyer from when the prope~-ty did close they couldn't find anybody. I never was quite sure whose 22 So are you -- when were you trying to resell jurisdiction it's in. Some people say it's in the Presidio 23 the property and have an interested buyer from when jurisdiction. Some people say it's the Marfa24 property did close? jurisdiction. You know, so I would call all three of them, 25 those two Well, several months before -- before the pro A. and the

22 (Pages 82 to 85) Equire Deposition Services Pi~one (210) 331-2280 (800) 558-3670 Elcmtronically signed by Shana Wise (401-340-211-9479) 9901 IH-10 West Antonio, T.X. 78230 San Ste. 630 Fax (210) 558-3670 1 bO420e4-5c40-48dT-b2d5-406f2d5221a3

Case 1:07-cv-00012-MCW
Robert Ingrum

Document 15-3

Filed 01/25/2008

Page 17 of 20
December 10, 2007

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closed. l Q. That picture and the other one of the pit -2 Q. Before you actually closed -A. Of the pit, right. A. Yes. 3 Q. -- that was a little dark. Q. -- you were trying to sell it -4 A. Right. Those picture -- those two pictures ther A. I wanted to have an interested buyer -- I wanted to 5 Q. On Exhibit 10. So just sell offpart of it, not --just a small part. And I had a -- based on walking it off? 6 you know, I wanted to have an interested buyer to A. Yes. 7 sell part of it to when -- when the property closed. So I was Q. I had the pit go down in the ground? 8 -- Does a period of several months, maybe a year, that -- that Yes, it does. 9 A. I would -I'd take people out there. Prior to closing. l0 Q. Well, would you describe it more as a scraping Q. Do you have records of-- of who those interested 11 the sides? buyers were? 12 A. I would say mainly -- it does go down in the g 13 some. But I would -- I would describe it mainly as a A. No, ! don't. Q. You say, in response to interrogatory number five side. 14 from the -excuse me -- yes, number five. Actually, it's in Q, What kind of material was taken? 15 the supplemental response. You said it was 35,000 square They just call it road base. 16 A. feet? A. It's inthe-17 Q. Who is they? Q. Exhibit 14. In your supplemental response at the