Free Motion to Strike - District Court of Federal Claims - federal

Case 1:00-cv-00697-JFM

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v.

: ..>Case Ro. ::98,~2.6C. 98~1~4Q.

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, ....

direction.

.... ._._ Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. 1111 14th Street, N.W. Siiite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005

1

Case 1:00-cv-00697-JFM Edward Benz

Document 290-2

Filed 02/09/2007

Page 3 of 36 May 10, 2002

Washington, D.C. Page 6

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series of questions during the day and want you to give your best answers to them. If there's something about one of my questions that you don't understand or you would like clarified, please ask me and I'll be happy to clarify it. But if you don't ask for clarification I'm going to assume you understand the questions, okay? A. Q. Okay. All right. And we're pretty informal

around here so if you need a break or want a break for any reason, just let us know or if there's. anything else we can do for you to be happy to try to help? A. Q. A. Okay. Okay. Where are you currently employed? I currently work for the JAI Corporation

and their address is in Fairfax. We just moved and I haven't committed it to memory yet.. But I can get that if you want. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Okay. Do you have a business card? I do. Okay. Could I -Do you want me to get one? Tell you what, if it's handy, fine. Or. we

can get it at the break.

Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. 1111 14th street, N.W. Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005

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Case 1:00-cv-00697-JFM Edward Benz

Document 290-2

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Page 4 of 36 May 10, 2002

Washington, D.C.

Page 7

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Ao

And that is the correct address on there. Okay. Good. Just off the press? Yeah. Some things are important when you .~. How long have you been with JAI

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move.

Q.
A. Q. employed? A.

Corporation?

Since 1997. And prior to that, where were you

was employed with Jacobs Engineering

Company, or Jacobs Engineering Group is what it's called. They're headquartered in Pasadena, I worked
.|

in their Washington, D.C. office. Q. Okay. Ending in '97 and beginning when,

if we go backwards in time, approximately?
~A.

1983. Okay. And that entire time is in the D.C.

office? A. Yes. Okay. Several D,C. offices. Okay, right. Prior to 1983, what did you

Q.
A.

Q.
do?
A.

I worked for NUS Corporation up in

Gaithersburg.

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Case 1:00-cv-00697-JFM
Billy M. Cole

Document 290-2
McLean, VA

Filed 02/09/2007

Page 5 of 36
March 1~2, 2002

! Page 1

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IN THE UNITED STATES COURT OF FEDERAL CLAIMS. -X YANKEE ATOMIC ELECTRIC COMPANY (98-126C) (Merow, S.J~) CONNECTICUT YANKEE ATOMICPOWER cOMPANY (98-154C) (Merow, S.J.) FLORIDA POWER & LIGHT COMPANY (98-483C) (Wilson, J.) NORTHERN STATES POWER. COMPANY (98-484C) (Wiese,J.) DUKE POWER, A Division ,of DUKE ENERGY (98-485C) (Sypolt, J.) INDIANA M£CHIGAN POWER COMPANY (98-486C) (Hodges, J.) SACRAMENTO MUNICIPAL UTILITY DISTRICT (98-488C) (Yock, S.J.) SOUTHERN NUCLEAR OPERATING COMPANY, etal. (98-488C) (Yock, S.J.) COMMONWEALTH EDISON COMPANY (98-621C) (Hewitt, J. ) BOSTON EDISON COMPANY (99-447C) (Allegra, J.) GPU NUCLEAR, INCORPORATED
Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. i 111 14th Street, N.W. Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005

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Case 1:00-cv-00697-JFM

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Billy M. Cole McLean, VA

March 12, 2002

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(00-440C) (Bush, J.) WISCONSIN ELECTRIC POWER COMPANY (00-697C) (Merow, S.J.)

: : :

POWER AUTHORITY OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK :
(00-703C) (Damich, J.) OMAHA PUBLIC POWER DISTRICT (01-115C)(Bush, J.) NEBRASKA PUBLIC POWER DISTRICT (01-I16C) (Sypolt, J.) TENNESSEE VALLEY AUTHORITY (01-249C) (Bruggink, J.) Plaintiffs, v. THE UNITED STATES, Defendant.

:Discovery :Judge: :(Judge xSypolt)

.............. " ....... McLean, Virginia

Tuesday, March 12, 2002 Deposition of BILLY M. COLE, a witness, called for examination by counsel for Plaintiffs in the above-entitled matter, pursuant to notice, the witness being duly sworn by CATHERINE So BOYD, a Notary Public in and for the Commonwealth of Virginia, taken at the officesof Shaw Pittman, LLP, 1650 Tysons

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Billy M. Cole

March 12, 2002 McLean, VA

105

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 II 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2o 21 22 23 24 25 Q.

AFTERNOON SESSION (1:17 p.m.) MS. HEWITT: Why don!t we go back on the record? Whereupon, BILLY M. COLE, the witness on the stand at the timeof recess, having been previously duly sworn, was further examined and testified as follows: FURTHER EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS BY MS. HEWITT: Mr. Cole, I would like to finish up

just getting an outline of your professional history. We sort of got detoured a little bit on the substance of your duties there, but how long did you work on the waste management program forPNL? A. Theperiod of time that I worked on

waste management problems, whether you call it -- the waste management program has some official connotation to it, but working in the waste management area for ~NL, probably from early '70s, maybe late '60s, early '70s off and

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Billy M. Cole

March 12, 2002 McLean, VA

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on.

In those days, I did a lot of other little things in those days, but that's, when I started working on it was probably '68, '69 as a technician writing computer programs: I also worked on the nuclear powered artificial heart program. I also built some telescopes up on top of the mountain for the Aurora program. I also did some work for Rutgers University for PNL in tracking Russian satellites and things like this -- a lot of things. Q. You had said earlier that you were the

manager of waste acceptance at PNL from the middle of 1985 until January 1989, is that right? A. Probably middle of '85 until January

of '89, yes. What happened in January 1989? A. left. Q.
A.

I resigned my position at Battelle and

Why did you resign? I got a better offer. And what was that?

Q.

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Billy M. Cole McLean, VA

March 12, 2002

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Vice president of JAI Corporation. What is JAI Corporation? Johnson Associates, Incorporated, Nuclear Engineering, Beltway bandit.
Qo

And what position d~d you take with

them? A. Vice president. And what were your responsibilities as

Q.
A. Q.

vice president?
!o

Bring in money. Did you continue to work on the DOE

12 13

civilian radioactive waste management program? A. Yes, I did. I turned around and

subcontracted back to PNL.
15

Q.

Did your tasks differ in any way now

that you were working for JAI?
:1.7 18 :1.9 20 21 22 23 24 25

A. in charge.

No, not really. I just was no longer

I was a subcontractor. Q. Who did you report to when you Were at

JAI working on this civilian radioactive waste management program? A. I~think the person that took over for

me I believe at that time was Rick Walling, but the man working on most of this stuff for Rick

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Billy M. Cole McLean, VA

March 12, 2002

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was Pat McDuffie, so most of my interfaces were with Pat. Q. And at this time in 1989, who were you

interacting with at DOE, if anybody? A. Alan Brownstein; let's see. What was

her name? The people that worked for Alan -Mary Lou, Mary Lou Payton I think was her name. Q. And how long, how long were you in the

position of vice president at JAI? A. Well, I'm still. Still there on my

business card, even though I'm not very active, but they still, the Board of Directors keeps both me, and I don't refuse it, so that gives me free business Cards. Q. Have you been employed by JAI

continuously since 1989? A. Q. No. Did there come a point in time where

you left JAI? A. Q. A. Q. Ao Yes. Yes. And when was that? August 1993. And where did you go? I went back to work for PNL, and when

I say PNL, I mean Battelle.

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Billy M. Cole

March 12, 2002 McLean, VA

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Battelle Memorial Institute operated the Pacific Northwest Laboratories for the Department of Energy, so I worked for Battelle, but they contacted me and asked me to open up an office for them in Germantown, Maryland, on the mixed nuclear waste program since. I had done one for the spent fuel program, andafter some negotiations and some reasoning, had a lot to do with retirement benefits, I accepted, went up and got the office open, got the program started. A year and a half later in 1995, Secretary O'Leary downsized all the laboratories. One of the first ways of downsizing was what they called an enhanced retirement package, so they were downsizing PNL. On the payroll, I was a PNL employee even though I was here in the Washington, D.C. area, and I was eligible, and I took it, so I retired physically formally and finally retired from Battelle in May 30th -- no -- April 30th, 1995. May Ist, went back to JAI, same position.

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Billy M. Cole.

March 12, 2002 McLean, VA 110

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Q.

When you returned to JAI on May Ist of

1995, did you return to work on the civilian radioactive waste management program? A. Yes, I did. One of the roles when I

first went to work for JAI, I was working doing some work stil! for PNL plus a few others, some classified stuff that I can't talk about, but we did a lot of things. In 1991, DOE hired a new M&O contractor, management and operating contractor, for the commercial waste management program. The M&O was no longer PNL. It. was TRW. JAi was one of the teammates with TRW that bid on that contract, and we won it. I became the manager of the waste acceptance department for the new program. What goes around comes around. Q. And when you returned in 1995 to JAI,

did you resume that role? A. I resumed that role again, yes, because there was a couple interim managers while I was gone that for one reason or another didn't work out well with DOE, so I came back in.

Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. 1111 14th Street, N.W. Suite 400 !-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005

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Billy M. Cole

March .12, 2002 McLean, VA ili

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Q.

In your role as manager for waste

acceptance, either at PNL or at JAI, did you have occasion to participate in all the APRs that were produced by DOE? A. Q. Yes. And did you have occasion to

participate in the production of all the ACRs produced by DOE? A. Q. Yes, in one form or another, yes. What other responsibilities did you

have in the mid-1980s at PNL with regard to the waste management program? You had mentioned the, developing the ACRs as one, one additional task. A. No. I told you theFIMS, which is the

federal interim storage program, F-I-M-S. Storage requirements report, I was responsible for developing that. The ACR issue resolution process, there were a lot ofother little jobs. We were doing technical jobs like determining what the effects would be on spent fuel in dry storage for long periods of time and with certain types of atmospheres,, either oxygen or inert atmospheres and things like this.

Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. 1111 14th Street, N.W. Suite 400 !-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005

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Billy M. Cole

March 12, 2002 McLean, VA 112

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on.

We had all kinds of the nitties going

We also developed the first dry storage cask for testing spent fuel in dry storage called the REA 2023 built by Riddenhall Eggers & Associates. It's still sitting out in Idaho right now with fuel in it. Q. Did you have any role in developing or

producing the fee adequacy reports that were issued by DOE? A. Q. A. Yes. What was your role? My predominant role was as manager

responsible for the report. The man who actually did the work was Roger Engel. .I had to approve it, but typically I approved most anything Roger did. He was good. Q. Were you responsible for or did you

have any role in producing the tota! system life cycle reports issued by DOE annually after the standard contract was executed? A. I never had a lot of involvement in

the early years of tota! system life cycle cost stuff.

Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. 1111 14th Street, N.W. Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005

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Billy M..Cole

March 12, 2002 McLean, VA 113

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Later years in the nineties, I would feed information to the people that were doing it, things like acceptance rates and things like that. Q. Did there come a time where you

practically retired from JAI? And I know you say you're still affiliated with them, but.I also understand that you're rAtired now? A. I keep trying to be retired, yes.

February llth, ninety, is it .'99 I think was when the contract that TRW had was over, and I decided well, that's a good time to bow out. I worked for 50 years. I paid in Social Security for 50 years, and I decided it's time to quit. Q. So at that, at the point in time where

you stopped working on the civilian management waste project or program?
no

Yes. I would like to go back to the ACR

process. A. Okay. We talked about the June 1987 ACR

Q.
report.

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Billy M. Cole

March 13, 2002 McLean, VA 245

1

IN THE UNITED STATES COURT OF FEDERAL CLAIMS -x YANKEE ATOMIC ELECTRIC COMPANY : :

4 5 6 7

(98-126C) (Merow, S.J.)

CONNECTICUT YANKEE ATOMIC POWER COMPANY : (98-154C) (Merow, S.J.) FLORIDA POWER & LIGHT COMPANY (98-483C) (Wilson, J.)
:

9 I0 II 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

NORTHERN STATES POWER COMPAN~ (98-484C) (Wiese,J.) DUKE POWER, A Division of DUKE ENERGY CORP. (98-485C) (Syp01t, J. ) INDIANA MICHIGAN POWER COMPANY (98-486C) (Hodges, J.) SACRAMENTO MUNICIPAL UTILITY DISTRICT (98-488C) (Yock, S.J.) SOUTHERN NUCLEAR OPERATING COMPANY, et al. (98-488C) (Yock, S.J.) COMMONWEALTH EDISON COMPANY (98-621C) (Hewitt, J.) BOSTON EDISON COMPANY (99-447C) (Allegra, J.) GPU NUCLEAR, INCORPORATED

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Billy M. Cole

March 13, 2002 McLean, VA 246

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(00-440C) (Bush, J.) WISCONSIN ELECTRIC POWER COMPANY (00-697C) (Merow, S.J.) POWER AUTHORITY OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK (00-703C).(Damich, J.) OMAHA PUBLIC POWER DISTRICT (01-I15C) (Bush, J.) NEBRASKA PUBLIC POWER DISTRICT (01-I16C) (Sypolt, J.) TENNESSEE VALLEY AUTHORITY (01-249C) (Bruggink, J.) Plaintiffs,
V.

:Discovery :Judge: :(Judge xSypolt) .McLean, Virginia wednesday, March 13, 2002 Continued deposition of BILLY M. COLE,

THE UNITED STATES, Defendant.

¯ a witness, recalled for examination by counsel for Plaintiffs in the above-entitled matter~ pursuant to notice, the witness being duly sworn by CATHERINE S. BOYD, a Notary Public in and for the Commonwealth of Virginia, taken at the offices of Shaw Pittman, LLP, 1650 Tysons

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Billy M. Cole McLean, VA

March 13, 2002

504

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MR..MACDONALD: I think that's it for my questions. MR. MILLER: I just have a couple. EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE DEFENDANT BY MR. MILLER: Q. Mr. Cole, you have never worked for

5 6 7 8 9 i0 Ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 Q. employee? A.

DOE, have you? No, other than just as a contractor. Right, but you have never been a DOE

I have never been a DOE employee, no. So other than having Voiced your

Q.

opinion on the things that the people at DOE with whom you worked told you, you can't speak for DOE, can you? A. Q. A. No, I cannot. No further questions. DOE always made it pretty clear to me.

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I mean.it was just a understood rule as a contractor you don't speak for the department. MR. MACDONALD: I think we would like to leave the .deposition open pending some of the privilege and document issues. MS. HEWITT~ Thereis a lot, whole lot

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Darfiel A. Dreyflas'

May 15, 2002

'~"~IN THE UNITEb STATES
x
3 4

YANKEE ~TOMIC ELECTRIC, COMPANY:~

"" Plaintiff,
6 7
: No. 98-126C

THE UNITED STATES, befendant. X Was~±ngton, D~C. Wednesday, .Ma~ 15, .2002.

8 9 I0 II 12 13 [4 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22
23 24 25

Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. 1111 14th Street, N.W. Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005.

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Daniel A. Dreyfus Washington, D.C.

May 15, 2002

Page 8

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your educational background? A. You want a 71-year bio. I'm an engineer

by training. I have two engineering degrees and a Ph.D. in political science, I have held a number of engineering positions. My first government job I was a machine gunner in Korea. I worked for the department of -well, I started out working for Texaco as.a construction engineer. Then I went to Alaska where I was a remote site planning engineer for the Corps of Engineers. I worked for the Department of the Interior. I worked on Capitol Hill for about 12 years. My last position there was staff director of what had become the Senate Energy Committee while I was there. It was originally the Senate Committee on Interior and Insular Affairs. And then the Senate reorganized in the 1970s and it became the Energy Committee. I was professional staff member there and ultimately the staff director of the Senate Energy Committee. I left the government for ten or 12 years, worked in the natural gas industry, a research position for the Gas Research Institute. And I was

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Daniel A. Dreyfus

May 15, 2002 Washington, D.C.

Pag~ 9 1 2 3 4 5. 6 7 8 9 I0 Ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 appointed to -- well, I went back into the Department of Energy initially as a special assistant to the Secretary. And that was in 1993, in February. Q. A. You mean '83 probably, 1983 or '93? The first Clinton Administration. I got

there in February. And I served as a noncareer -NCS as special assistant to the Secretary unti! about October of that year, when I was confirmed -- when the nomination was sent up ~and I was confirmed by the Senate. And I left there in January of '97, the end of the first term, when the Secretary left, Hazel O'Leary. And I left at that point. I worked for the Smithsonian Institution for a few years, the Museum of Natural History, I was associate director for operations, and then I retired. Q. I'll just ask about a couple of the

highlights there. You worked for the Senate Energy Committee. Can I get a sense of time frame, when were those 12 years roughly? A. They ended about -- well, they were in the

1970s. I went there about '68 and I left there about '80. I was not there when the act was passed in '82, I was gone before that. Q. You're referring to the Nuclear Waste

Alderson Reporting Company, Inc. 1111 14th Street, N.W. Suite 400 1-800-FOR-DEPO Washington, DC 20005

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Document 290-2

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Michael J. La~rrence

Richland, WA

:' i

1 2 3 4
5 YANKEE ATOMICELECTRIC COMPanY,.
6 et al.,

~..

7

Plaintiffs, 9 i0 ii
12

vs. UNITED STATES, Defendant.

).NOo 98-126C ) )

13

14 15 16 17
18
19

DEPOSITION OF MICHAEL J. LAWRENCE, VOLUME I

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1111 14.t~i Street, N W Suite 400 1-8~01~Oi~-'-~{~ Washh-~gto-fi; DC 20005

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Case 1:00-cv-00697-JFM Document 290-2 Filed 02/09/2007 Michael J. Lawrence Richland, WA

Page 23 of 36 5/20/2002

1
2 3 4

Page13 A. We did not discuss anything of merit in the case. It was the formality of questions and answers. That was al!. Q. And other than your conversation with government counsel, have you discussed potentially testifying with anybody else? A. Q. No, Did you review any documents to prepare for testifying.today? A. No.

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6 7

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Q. Let me ask about your background. It might help me understand just where you -- you fit in. Why don't.we start from your current position and work backyard. What is your current position?. A. I'm associate laboratory director for Energy Science & Technology at the Pacific Northwest National Lab. Q. What do you do as associate director for Energy Science & Technology? A. I'm responsible for the energy programs, the information science programs, and material science programs that the laboratory conducts for the Department of Energy and industry. Q. How long have you been in this position?

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Michael J. Lawrence Richland, WA

Page 14
1 A.

Since April ist. Of this year? This year.

4

Q.

In this position, do you do any work for the Office of Civilian Radioactive Waste Management?

5
6 7 A. Q.

Not to the best of my knowledge. How many people come under your supervision as associatedirector?

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9 A. i0 Q. ii 12 13 14 A.

620. That's a lot of people. There may be somebodY involved somewhere doing something for Civilian Radioactive Waste Management but you may not be personally aware of? That's correct.

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Q. And before April ist, what was your prior
position? A. I was the manager of Nuclear Safety & Technology at Pacific Northwest National Lab. Q.
A.

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When did you start that position? I don't recall the specific date.

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Q. Just approximately. A. January 2001.

Q. What kind of work did you do when you were manager of Nuclear Safety & Technology?
A.

In general, I was~responsible for our nuclear

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Mictiael J. Lawrence Richland, WA

P~el5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 Ii 12 13 14 ~15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. technology programs at PNNL. Q. And in that position, did you do any work for the Office of Civilian Radioactive Waste Management? I don't believe so. You didn't do any work personally for Civilian Radioactive Waste Management? A. That[s correct. Q. By the way, I've been using the long name, Office of Civilian Radioactive Waste Management. Are you familiar with the abbreviated acronym RW? Yes. Can we use the term RW to abbreviate for Office of Civilian Radioactive Waste Management? Yes. Prior to your position of manager of Nuclear Safety & Technology, what was your position before that? Manager of International Nuclear Programs. What did you do in that position° I was responsible for our international nuclear work. Qo What do you mean by "international"? What sort of international nuclear work were you responsible for? A. We have international nuclear safety programs. We

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Michael J. Lawrence
Richland, WA

5/20/2002

Page16 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. A. A. have projects with international nuclear organizations. I was responsible for developing and carrying out that work. Q. And when did you start that position as manager of International Nuclear Programs? July 2000.

Q. And prior to July of 2000, what wasyour position? A. I worked for British Nuclear~Fuels, Limited.

Q. What was your.position at British Nuclear Fuels, Limited? I was executive vice-president and manager of the waste treatment plant project. Q. When did you start that position? A. Q. April of 1999. You say manager -- executive vice-president and .manager of the waste treatment program. What sort of waste treatment? 'What sort of waste were you treating? It was tobuild a treatment plant for the defense wastes that's buried at the Hanford site. Q. And why did you leave the BNFL position? A. i had a serious disagreement with the way BNFL was .managing -- handling that project and responding to problems on that project. Q. What sort .of disagreement?

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Michael J. Lawrence Richland, WA

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Pagel7 I -- there was a serious cost overrun, which they would not acknowledge responsibility for, and they would not go along with my recommendation to provide the gover.nment with an alternative way of getting the job done.

Q. So you left as a matter of principle? A. Yes.

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Q. When did you start at BNFL? Ao Q. July 1995o In April of '99, you were executive vice-president and manager of the waste treatment program. What was your position at BNFL before that? A. Immediately prior to that, I was chief operating officer and executive vice-president of BNFL in Fairfax, Virginia. Q. A. Q. When didyou start that position? January '98, I believe. What did you do as chief operating officer and executive vice-president? A. I was responsible.for the execution of a number of the projects that. BNFL was conducting for the Department of Energy or private industry. Q. You referred to BNFL, you were chief operating officer., Was that BNFL United States operations? A. Yes. It's BNFL, Inc.

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Michael J. Lawrence Richland, WA

1 Q.

P~e18 Andthen you reported to someone in Great Britain?. No, I reported to the CEO of BNFL, Inc.

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Why did youswitch positions from chief operating officer to become manager of the waste treatment program? There were two reasons: One, there were, I felt, a very strong influence on our operations in the U.S. by the British parent that made it difficult at times to carry out the programs the way I felt they should be; and two, I really looked for an opportunity to return to the Tri-Cities. Before you were chief operating officer, what was your prior position? I was president and CEO of Bajarito Scientific Corporation. Would you like me to spell that? I'm sure the court reporter would. B-a-j-a-r-i-t-o. What did that company do, when you were president? Bajarito was a subsidiary of BNFL, Inc. It had been acquired in 1995. It was located in Los Alamos, New Mexico. And it developed and provided scientific instrumentation for the classification of nuclearwaste. Scientific instrumentation for the classification of nuclear waste. Can you explain a little bit

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Michael J. Lawrence
Richland, WA

P~el9 1 2 3 4 A. more just what that means? .~ The Department of Energy has a number of. drums of wastes that are called transuranic wastes,which have to be disposed of in a geologic formation of which the waste isolation pilot plant in Carlsbad, New Mexico, was to be the final disposition site. In order to ~e eligible for disposal, the waste had to meet certain criteria and composition. Our system allowed a drum to be measured to determine whether or not it met those criteria. Q. When did you start that position with Bajarito? A. July 1995. And prior to that position, what -- what was your employment? A. From October 1991 until July 1995, I was~counselor for nuclear policy for the United States State Department at the United States Mission to the Vienna International Organizations in Vienna, Austria. Q. A. What did you do in that position? I was responsible on a day-to-day basis for the United States representation to the International Atomic Energy Agency, which was located in Vienna.

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Michael J. Lawrence Richland, WA

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Page 20 with civilian radioactive waste management issues? Yes. What sort of issues were you involved in dealing with civilian radioactive waste management, when you were counselor? The IAEA sets very broad, general international guidelines or standards for a number of nuclear activities, including the management, disposal of nuclear waste. And so consequently, I would be -could be involved in discussing criteria, requirements forwaste disposal. In that position, as counselor for nuclear policy at the State Department, did you have a relationship with RW?
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No. So there was no attempt at the State Department to make sure that its policies were consistent with what RW was doing?

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Not that I ever saw. And prior to that position, as counselor for nuclear policy, what did you do? I was director of waste operations for Chem Nuclear Environmental Services in Golden, Coiorado. And what did you do as director of waste

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operations for Chem Nuclear? Tried to develop business with either government or industry for the management, storage, treatment, or disposal of various types of nuclear wastes. Q. What was Chem's capability? What sort of business were you trying to develop for them? A. We were attempting to have the Department of Energy look at a concept called privatization, where we would actually build -- finance and build and provide services to treat or manage nuclear waste in return for a fixed unit price by the government. Q. Why were you trying to develop this business through the Department of Energy? A. Because the government had a number of obligations to meet in the cleanup of their sites. And their budgets were insufficient to allow them to meet all their requirementsr Q. You referred to the government having obligations to clean up its own sites. Did you ever try to develop business through RW? A. Q. A. No. Why did you leave the Chem Nuclear.position?. I was offered a diplomatic post in Vienna,

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¯ Michael J. Lawrence
Richland, WA

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Austria.¯ And that was attractive? Yes.

Q. Why did you leave the diplomatic post in Austria? A. Q. A. Q. A. Four years was enoughtime. You worked your way back to beautiful Tri-Cities? I went to Sante Fe. Before Chem Nuclear, where did you work? I was the manager of the Richland Operations Office for the Depirtment of Energy in Richland, Washington. Q. So I'm going to get my dates mixed up. When did you start with the Chem Nuclear position? A. Q. August 1991 -- 1990. I'm sorry. August 1990. And when did you become manager of the DOE Richland operations office? A. June 1984. What did you do a¯s manager of Richland operations office?

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I was responsible for all the operations and programs associated with the H&nford site. Did any of¯those programs have a relationship to' RW? Yes.

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Michael J. Lawrence Pdchland, WA

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Page23 Up until 1987 -- I forget the month -- Hanford.was one of the candidate sites for geological repository for high-level waste and spent.fuel disposal for RW. Other than the connection of Hanford being a candidate site for a geological repository, did your work as manager of the Richland operations office have any other connections to RW?
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No. When Hanford was a candidate site, what sort of work did you do involving Hanford's location as a geological repository? Through .an assistant manager and divisions and branches under that assistant manager, we were responsible .for the characterization of the basalt under the Hanford site to determine if it qualified to be either a finalist or the repository or to be the repository or to disqualify it if the data did not support its selection. And wry did that work stop? Congress in '87 amended the Nuclear Waste Policy Act to focus all attention on Yucca Mountain, and to terminate the other two programs, including the one at Hanford and the one at Death Smith County,

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Michael J. Lawrence Richland, WA

5/20/2002

Page24 1 2 3 4 A. Q. within 90 days. About how many people did you.supervise when you were manager of the Richland operations office? There were about 340 Feds and anywhere between 12,500 to 15,000 contract employees.
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Why did you leave that position as manager ofthe Richland operations office? I was ready for someth±ng different and I also felt that the Secretary of Energy, who I reported to, wanted all decisions to be made in Washington, but left the managers in the field responsible for those decisions. So you were left with the consequences of the decisions that you couldn't make? That's correct. Who was the DOE Secretary at that time? Admiral James Watkins. Prior to your work at the --as manager of the Richlandoperations office, what was your position before that? I was -- and I'm not sure if the title "acting" was in there or not -- but I was the director of the Nuclear Waste Policy Act Implementation Office at the Department of Energy in Washington, D.C. The Nuclear Waste Policy Act Implementation

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Michael J. Lawrence

Richland, WA

5/20/2002 Page25

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Office, that was the precursor of RW? Correct.

Q. Why did you leave that position asacting director of that program? A. Two reasons: One, the Nuclear Waste Policy Act required a political appointee to be the director of RW, and one was found and accepted; two, the manager of the Richland operations office was a job that I very much wanted. Q. Why did you want that job? A. It would giveme the responsibility for carrying out and fulfilling a number of nuclear and scientific programs that were of great interest and challenging. Q. And how long were you director or actingdirector of the Nuclear Waste Policy Act Implementation Office? A. .From January of '84 to June of '84. Q. And prior to January of '84 -- January of '84, what was your position? A. I was the deputy director of the Nuclear Waste Policy Act Implementation office and the -- I ¯ think it was director of spent fuel storage and transportation programs in the Nuclear Waste Policy Act Implementation Office.

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Patrick McDuffie Carlsbad, CA

March 18.2002

IN THE UNITED STATES COURT OF FEDERAL CLAIMS

YANKEE ATOMICELECTRIC COMPANY,) (98-126C) (Merow, S.J.), ) et al.,

Plaintiffs,
VS.

) )

THE UNITED STATES, Defendant.~ full caption on page 3

) ) ) )

DEPOSITION OF PATRICK MC DUFFLE VOLUME I, PAGES 1 - 184 TAKENON MONDAY, MARCH 18, 2002

VICTORIA MELEKIAN CSR NO. 6996

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